John Groce at Illinois

[Hands Malone]

I totally agree. It may be hindsight, but no doubt we would be so much better off with seasoned players brought up through our system from the get-go. We tried to stop the bleeding so to speak, when Groce should have accepted the lumps up front and built the program back up the right way rather than through a piece-meal approach.

I have no problem bringing in a juco or 5th year to fill a hole. I do have a problem bringing in a transfer who has to redshirt for a year when that spot could go to a future freshman who may not contribute his first year here on regular basis but may blossom his sophomore or junior year.

 

[Newman]

We tried to stop the bleeding when there wasn't any. Groce recruited like he was desperately clinging to his job when he wasn't.

Fans will put up rebuilding with a bunch of young players under a beloved new coach. Take that opportunity, next guy.

That would have meant us probably not even being close to the bubble in the first 3 years. I don't think our fanbase would have been that patient even if they say that they preferred that in hindsight.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

The only way to fill them was with graduate transfers

That's not true. Lots of high school recruits enroll in the spring.

 

[bigruss22]

We tried to stop the bleeding when there wasn't any. Groce recruited like he was desperately clinging to his job when he wasn't.

Fans will put up rebuilding with a bunch of young players under a beloved new coach. Take that opportunity, next guy.

Eh not really, fans want instant success. Groce wanted his cake and to eat it too, by combining transfers to plug in holes/provide upperclassmen early on while still recruiting HS recruits hard.

His transfers haven't all hit and he's missed on key HS recruits (the bigger issue) and that's been the downfall. Let's say instead of Cosby we landed Nic Moore, that totally changes what this team has gone through. Moore would be finishing up right now and we would have bought ourselves a few years to find out next pg. He would've been the cushion to get to a ready to play HS recruit.

Instead, we had key transfers take up scholarship time and we didn't have HS recruits that were good enough/ready to contribute at all 5 positions.

Strategy was good, execution was poor.

 

[bigruss22]

Also, if Groce went to the NCAAs in even 2 of his 3 first seasons then he isn't on the hotseat and people see this year as an anomaly in what was momentum for the program. Having transfers who could help get us there would've been key, instead we whiffed on them.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

That would have meant us probably not even being close to the bubble in the first 3 years. I don't think our fanbase would have been that patient even if they say that they preferred that in hindsight.

No, we're talking after year 1 when "JFG" was at its apex. That happened because of what he did with Weber's roster (plus McLaurin, and with Rice in his sit out year, in fairness)

It would have meant taking a massive, but telegraphed and understood from a mile away, step backward in year 2, and then building from there. Instead we built a franken-team out of whatever instant impact was available.

I thought it was a mistake then, and it sure looks like a mistake now.

There are a million ways to win a basketball game, and I'm just some schmo on the internet who will be happy no matter which route we take, but I really think there is something to bucking the growing trend of transfer-based roster construction.

 

[geneseo]

Groce sent players packing after his first year on the job who weren't going to provide anything. That common at every school with a new coach. It's not like Groce is creaning guys left and right.

I didn't say "creaning". I said "for whatever reason"... meaning it includes, creaning transfers, disciplinary transfers, double disciplinary transfers, incoming transfers, outgoing transfers, fifth year transfers... the roster is like a revolving door.

Just in the last twelve months + 3 days... Cosby, Colbert and Paul have been shown the door. Paul for the second time. Cosby and Paul were also transfers in (again Paul twice).

I don't think this revolving door is good for the team or the individual student/athlete.

 

[Foggy Notion]

That's not true. Lots of high school recruits enroll in the spring.

OK, there are a few high school recruits in the spring, but not a lot, and most of the good ones go to Kentucky.

 

[Foggy Notion]

No, we're talking after year 1 when "JFG" was at its apex. That happened because of what he did with Weber's roster (plus McLaurin, and with Rice in his sit out year, in fairness)

It would have meant taking a massive, but telegraphed and understood from a mile away, step backward in year 2, and then building from there. Instead we built a franken-team out of whatever instant impact was available.

I thought it was a mistake then, and it sure looks like a mistake now.

There are a million ways to win a basketball game, and I'm just some schmo on the internet who will be happy no matter which route we take, but I really think there is something to bucking the growing trend of transfer-based roster construction.

Let's assume for a moment that Groce had followed this strategy and we had two miserable years after the tournament in his first year. Then all the injuries hit this year, and now it's three miserable years without any hint of success. Do you really think we would be in a better position now?

 

[BillyBob1]

That's not true. Lots of high school recruits enroll in the spring.

Name 1 basketball player that has. Football yes, basketball no.

 

[GreenwoodAve]

If you think you have to fire a coach eventually, that usually means do it immediately. IF Whitman thinks there is less than a 50% chance next year is good, then he should try and make a move.

 

[PostersLastStand]

If you are going to recruit players that have one or two years like a fifth year senior or like a five star stud your coaching style needs to be geared toward those type of players. I hate using Calipari as an example, but I remember reading that he visited several JUCO coaches observing and eventually adopting parts of their style of play. Also, using how they incorporated their players into the system so quickly, because of the short time they were there. Of course, Cal has the luxury of having a lot of five star studs, but they defend and play or sit.

 

[illinitiger]

If you are going to recruit players that have one or two years like a fifth year senior or like a five star stud your coaching style needs to be geared toward those type of players. I hate using Calipari as an example, but I remember reading that he visited several JUCO coaches observing and eventually adopting parts of their style of play. Also, using how they incorporated their players into the system so quickly, because of the short time they were there. Of course, Cal has the luxury of having a lot of five star studs, but they defend and play or sit.

This is an interesting point...I'm sure there are processes and systems that accelerate the development of players and team chemistry.

KY certainly isn't perfect since you see all of those 5 star players lose to the likes of Auburn early in the season almost every year,...but the fact that Cal knows he can pick up tips from "lesser coaches" says alot about him , IMO.

Overall the idea of benchmarking techniques of highly successful jucos makes a lot of sense . I grew up near Charlie Spoonhour when he was a juco coach (southeast Iowa) and alot of D1 coaches could have learned much from him, I'm sure.

 

[Tygor]

Interesting observation. Many folks think the NBA is an offense-only type of league, and that's really not the case. You can always tell in mop up minutes and in parts of games where NBA players absolutely abuse newcomers to the league because they can't play defense. It's just that so many of the players are so good on offense that good defenders are made to look silly at times.

Knowing that you have a coach who has put kids into the Association and is telling you to play defense to make it to the next level or you sit is pretty awesome. Cal's guys play hard and play as a team. That's really saying something from a program who gets whatever athletes they want.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Name 1 basketball player that has. Football yes, basketball no.

Poor choice of words. They SIGN in the spring and enroll for the same coming fall semester that players who sign in November do.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Do you really think we would be in a better position now?

I don't subscribe to the idea that last year would have been miserable under this strategy, and yeah, I do.

 

[alexander58]

I don't subscribe to the idea that last year would have been miserable under this strategy, and yeah, I do.

If quality kids out of high school would have been an option , Groce would have signed them.
He did what he could to field a competitive team , obviously using transfers as a stopgap until he could get in with high school players who could help the program for 4 years.

 

[Foggy Notion]

I don't subscribe to the idea that last year would have been miserable under this strategy, and yeah, I do.

Which recruits do you think we missed out on because of lack of scholarships?

 

[Jreed322]

I didn't say "creaning". I said "for whatever reason"... meaning it includes, creaning transfers, disciplinary transfers, double disciplinary transfers, incoming transfers, outgoing transfers, fifth year transfers... the roster is like a revolving door.

Just in the last twelve months + 3 days... Cosby, Colbert and Paul have been shown the door. Paul for the second time. Cosby and Paul were also transfers in (again Paul twice).

I don't think this revolving door is good for the team or the individual student/athlete.

Three players in almost four years is a lot to you?

 

[IAmChrisFarley]

Three players in almost four years is a lot to you?

When they take up how many years worth of scholarships, and Groce passing over other players - yes, it's a lot.

 

[alaskaillini]

I hate to kick a man when he's (being put) down, but I think this is a pretty succinct and accurate assessment. I know other will disagree, but his over reliance on transfers always bothered me. I would have been much more patient if we were just working through the progression of bringing along young players.

He had 9 new players on the roster his second year (first recruiting year) - you expected all of those to be freshmen? Five were including a PG and 2 Cs.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I am not sure if Groce will ever right the ship here but if he does, he has the right charisma and energy to make it a long term run.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Which recruits do you think we missed out on because of lack of scholarships?

It's not lack of scholarships so much as a decision to turn our attentions elsewhere, but Sterling Brown, Larry Austin, Sean O'Mara, Peyton Allen and especially Glynn Watson and Ed Morrow come to mind. Plus not Creaning Myke Henry. And I'm just focusing on the state of Illinois.

Put Watson, O'Mara and Henry in the spots currently occupied by Nichols, Thorne, and Lewis. That's not a much better team? Post-hoc analysis, but still.

 

[Newman]

It's not lack of scholarships so much as a decision to turn our attentions elsewhere, but Sterling Brown, Larry Austin, Sean O'Mara, Peyton Allen and especially Glynn Watson and Ed Morrow come to mind. Plus not Creaning Myke Henry. And I'm just focusing on the state of Illinois.

Put Watson, O'Mara and Henry in the spots currently occupied by Nichols, Thorne, and Lewis. That's not a much better team? Post-hoc analysis, but still.

That's assuming that all of those guys wanted to come here. It's no guarantee that they would stick around without transferring too.

We can pretend to know what our roster would look like if we had focused on high school players but come on, nobody knows what it'd really be like or if we who currently be in a better position.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Three players in almost four years is a lot to you?

Three? Seven players have left Illinois before their eligibility had expired so far under Groce, eight if you count both Paul incidents, nine if you count LaTulip, and could be ten with Black.

Then there's also the three graduate transfers who were one-and-dones by definition, four if you count Starks.

That's a lot of short-term stays in a four year period.