John Groce at Illinois

Butkuser · Feb 24, 2016

IMO, and it is one that is definitely arguable, I look at whether the team is better; not just individual development, but the team play. At this point, I don't think we look like a better team, and most of the season is over. It's a large sample size.

I know the injury argument has merit, as does the lack of a true PG, but I don't think we have progressed in terms of team play. I juxtapose that with Gard taking over at Wisky, and how quickly he turned them around. Yes, he has good players, and a system they all know, but they still started off poorly, and he got them clicking.

Groce does not have us clicking, even though he has had time this season to instruct his team. Oh, and yes, I know, lots of Freshmen. Feel free to fire away, I am playing straight man on this, allowing those with more basketball acumen to provide the punch line...just don't punch me too hard.

bombayIllini · Feb 24, 2016

Groce has invested so much time/effort into some of the top notch players, that by the time they decide the entire class is empty, leading to 5th year recruits.

Which is why I think he should get kids who want to come here and are talented enough: the current freshmen class IMHO is a very good example. IF he can duplicate that kind of an effort every year, perhaps improving the talent as he goes along - which should be possible, he should be fine. No revolving doors or 5th year transfers.

Goldtop · Feb 24, 2016

bombayIllini said:
Which is why I think he should get kids who want to come here and are talented enough: the current freshmen class IMHO is a very good example. IF he can duplicate that kind of an effort every year, perhaps improving the talent as he goes along - which should be possible, he should be fine. No revolving doors or 5th year transfers.

I am a Groce supporter, but your argument seems only to points out his recruiting deficiency. The Junior and Freshman class have playmakers, but not at point guard or center(although Morgan is showing more than expected lately). Until Groce has success at recruiting a balanced team we will remain with have some really good players at certain positions that never get to realize their true potential.

bigruss22 · Feb 24, 2016

The 5th year seniors:
Starks (not really a 5th year but I'll throw him in here) - Fine, just asked to do too much when Tracy went down
Mclaurin - Perfectly acceptable, filled a big need for that team
Ekey - Fine, had some good moments but played a little too much
Thorne - Was huge until injury

Which one of those guys was a detriment to the team? Hmm??

Transfers:
Rice - Fantastic get
Cosby - Loved the idea of getting him, fell flat on his face
Paul - First time was ok, 2nd time was the biggest mistake of his career IMO
Nichols - Can't tell yet

Again, LOVED getting Cosby, a proven P5 combo guard that could shoot? I'll sign up for that every year. Now why did he fail so miserably? Not sure and that could be an interesting conversation.

Groce DID NOT fail because of 5th years and normal transfers. He failed because he couldn't get a PG or C HS recruit to develop while the transfers filled holes. He failed because he missed out on top targets without being able to get a backup recruit that could play competent minutes. He failed because he can't control his players. He failed because he isn't winning games.

Groce had the right vision, he just didn't execute it as well as we thought he could.

illinitiger · Feb 24, 2016

bigruss22 said:
The 5th year seniors:
Starks (not really a 5th year but I'll throw him in here) - Fine, just asked to do too much when Tracy went down
Mclaurin - Perfectly acceptable, filled a big need for that team
Ekey - Fine, had some good moments but played a little too much
Thorne - Was huge until injury

Which one of those guys was a detriment to the team? Hmm??

Transfers:
Rice - Fantastic get
Cosby - Loved the idea of getting him, fell flat on his face
Paul - First time was ok, 2nd time was the biggest mistake of his career IMO
Nichols - Can't tell yet

Again, LOVED getting Cosby, a proven P5 combo guard that could shoot? I'll sign up for that every year. Now why did he fail so miserably? Not sure and that could be an interesting conversation.

Groce DID NOT fail because of 5th years and normal transfers. He failed because he couldn't get a PG or C HS recruit to develop while the transfers filled holes. He failed because he missed out on top targets without being able to get a backup recruit that could play competent minutes. He failed because he can't control his players. He failed because he isn't winning games.

Groce had the right vision, he just didn't execute it as well as we thought he could.

Agree that personnel and recruitment tactics and strategies have been a downfall for JG. I think he's probably learned alot, but may be too late. On player control...I really think we have good kids. I even think that had they assigned ML or someone to "stick" with DP in Europe and beyond, we would have him contributing in a big way. So many woulda couldas...

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

Nichols is only counted as a transfer because of screwy NCAA rules. That's a high school recruit, in my book.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

bigruss22 said:
The 5th year seniors:
Starks (not really a 5th year but I'll throw him in here) - Fine, just asked to do too much when Tracy went down
Mclaurin - Perfectly acceptable, filled a big need for that team
Ekey - Fine, had some good moments but played a little too much
Thorne - Was huge until injury

Which one of those guys was a detriment to the team? Hmm??

Transfers:
Rice - Fantastic get
Cosby - Loved the idea of getting him, fell flat on his face
Paul - First time was ok, 2nd time was the biggest mistake of his career IMO
Nichols - Can't tell yet

Again, LOVED getting Cosby, a proven P5 combo guard that could shoot? I'll sign up for that every year. Now why did he fail so miserably? Not sure and that could be an interesting conversation.

Groce DID NOT fail because of 5th years and normal transfers. He failed because he couldn't get a PG or C HS recruit to develop while the transfers filled holes. He failed because he missed out on top targets without being able to get a backup recruit that could play competent minutes. He failed because he can't control his players. He failed because he isn't winning games.

Groce had the right vision, he just didn't execute it as well as we thought he could.

The piece of this you're missing is the opportunity costs. High school recruits that were available to us after striking out on the Cliff's of the world would not have made the instant impact that McLaurin or Thorne or Rice did. That's why we went that route. But we're years down the road now, and those high school guys would still be here as developed upperclassmen. The guys who have been here and grown and learned in our system are our best players right now. That's not a coincidence.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Nichols is only counted as a transfer because of screwy NCAA rules. That's a high school recruit, in my book.

Agreed, he didn't even practice with Tulane.

Illini257 · Feb 24, 2016

Can someone please post a poll on the question of whether the voter wants Groce fired or retained? I'm interested to see what every posters ultimate decision comes down to: yes or no. I would do this myself l, but I just joined.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Agreed, he didn't even practice with Tulane.

Although, on the other hand (let me go ahead and argue with myself

) the timing and process of Kipper's addition was more transfer-like. This wasn't a kid who we identified as a fit with our program and built a relationship with over a couple years. This was a last minute "there's a massive hole on our roster, lets look around and see what's available" situation where we're shopping in the discount rack.

That's the other piece of it. You look at programs that develop players well, it's not just the four years they're in school, they've been handpicked and groomed even a couple years earlier than that.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Although, on the other hand (let me go ahead and argue with myself ) the timing and process of Kipper's addition was more transfer-like. This wasn't a kid who we identified as a fit with our program and built a relationship with over a couple years. This was a last minute "there's a massive hole on our roster, lets look around and see what's available" situation where we're shopping in the discount rack.

You may want to refute your argument a bit here.

Kipper is from Ohio and IIRC Groce and his staff were pretty familiar with him. You're right in that it wasn't the traditional recruitment, but it wasn't Khalid Lewis. either.

MadtownIllin · Feb 24, 2016

I find it interesting that in this morning's Wisconsin State Journal they highlighted to Badgers 2011 recruiting class--Traevon Jackson, Frank Kaminsky, George Marshall, and Jarrod Uthoff--- and how all of them were 3 star recruits that we're not really highly heralded, yet 3 of the 4 have gone on to have extremely good (2 of them outstanding) careers. Either an outstanding job of picking talent or an excellent job of development ( I lean toward a combination of the two. The question is why can't our Illini do the same?

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

MadtownIllin said:
The question is why can't our Illini do the same?

We can. We have. Luther Head comes to mind. It's what you said, good scouting, good player development and good deployment of the players you have.

Hands Malone · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
We can. We have. Luther Head comes to mind. It's what you said, good scouting, good player development and good deployment of the players you have.

Bingo! Mom' of recruits loving Groce has got this program nowhere. You can look at Illinois kids at Iowa, Wiskie and Nebraska and wonder how any of those additions would have changed the trajectory of this program with wins or future Illinois home grown recruits.

AEX · Feb 24, 2016

bigruss22 said:
The 5th year seniors:
Starks (not really a 5th year but I'll throw him in here) - Fine, just asked to do too much when Tracy went down
Mclaurin - Perfectly acceptable, filled a big need for that team
Ekey - Fine, had some good moments but played a little too much
Thorne - Was huge until injury

Which one of those guys was a detriment to the team? Hmm??

Transfers:
Rice - Fantastic get
Cosby - Loved the idea of getting him, fell flat on his face
Paul - First time was ok, 2nd time was the biggest mistake of his career IMO
Nichols - Can't tell yet

No one player was a detriment, it's the use of them in aggregate that undermines team cohesion. People keep pointing out that Groce's teams have not been more than the sum of their parts (and often seem to be less). There are reasons for that. A big one is we haven't given players multiple years to integrate and adapt to one another, to figure out how to bring out the best in each other on the floor. Another one is the lack of a functional PG (for this system in particular).

temperedexpectations · Feb 24, 2016

Kind of weird how Groce's system was supposed to be high appeal to stud PG's and hasn't landed one to date, not from a lack of trying obviously. Now he gets a decent PG to commit and it might be to late.

Adnarel · Feb 24, 2016

Illini257 said:
Can someone please post a poll on the question of whether the voter wants Groce fired or retained? I'm interested to see what every posters ultimate decision comes down to: yes or no. I would do this myself l, but I just joined.

Is this possible, Dan?

temperedexpectations · Feb 24, 2016

Adnarel said:
Is this possible, Dan?

You can make a new thread and he can merge the poll with this one.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

Spoiler Alert: It will be 70-30 to fire.

Foggy Notion · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
The piece of this you're missing is the opportunity costs. High school recruits that were available to us after striking out on the Cliff's of the world would not have made the instant impact that McLaurin or Thorne or Rice did. That's why we went that route. But we're years down the road now, and those high school guys would still be here as developed upperclassmen. The guys who have been here and grown and learned in our system are our best players right now. That's not a coincidence.

This is a distortion of the timeline, which happens a lot on here. The only high-school recruits who would be upperclassmen right now are the ones from Groce's first recruiting class, which he only had a limited time to throw together and consisted of five players from high school. The next year's class had Finke and Black as high school recruits, who would be sophomores now if not for redshirts and injuries.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

Foggy Notion said:
This is a distortion of the timeline, which happens a lot on here. The only high-school recruits who would be upperclassmen right now are the ones from Groce's first recruiting class, which he only had a limited time to throw together and consisted of five players from high school. The next year's class had Finke and Black as high school recruits, who would be sophomores now if not for redshirts and injuries.

That's fair. But those guys would at least be birds in the hand, as opposed to Ekey, Starks, Cosby and Paul. Paul is the only one of that group who was even scheduled to still be here.

The idea was to avoid taking big lumps with a young, undermanned team. Oops, we took those lumps anyway, and without the developmental benefit of doing it with a bunch of your own freshmen.

Monte Carlo · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
That's fair. But those guys would at least be birds in the hand, as opposed to Ekey, Starks, Cosby and Paul. Paul is the only one of that group who was even scheduled to still be here.

The idea was to avoid taking big lumps with a young, undermanned team. Oops, we took those lumps anyway, and without the developmental benefit of doing it with a bunch of your own freshmen.

I totally agree. It may be hindsight, but no doubt we would be so much better off with seasoned players brought up through our system from the get-go. We tried to stop the bleeding so to speak, when Groce should have accepted the lumps up front and built the program back up the right way rather than through a piece-meal approach.

Second and Chalmers · Feb 24, 2016

Monte Carlo said:
We tried to stop the bleeding so to speak

We tried to stop the bleeding when there wasn't any. Groce recruited like he was desperately clinging to his job when he wasn't.

Fans will put up rebuilding with a bunch of young players under a beloved new coach. Take that opportunity, next guy.

Foggy Notion · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
That's fair. But those guys would at least be birds in the hand, as opposed to Ekey, Starks, Cosby and Paul. Paul is the only one of that group who was even scheduled to still be here.

The idea was to avoid taking big lumps with a young, undermanned team. Oops, we took those lumps anyway, and without the developmental benefit of doing it with a bunch of your own freshmen.

Again the timeline is important. Ekey came in with Groce's first freshmen (current juniors), of whom there were five. Starks was also in that class, but he had to redshirt because the NCAA declared him ineligible. We had a very thin roster that year. Roster spots opened up late in the prior year with all of the players transferring out, and we needed players to fill them. The only way to fill them was with graduate transfers because those are the only recruits who can be immediately eligible. they also would be gone in a year, thus not holding up any scholarships.

Ekey did not take any freshman's roster spot, and neither would Starks if not for the erratic NCAA. Cosby and Paul did not pan out, but hits and misses occur at every program for freshmen as well as transfers. Those two spots could theoretically have gone to freshmen, but these hypothetical recruits probably would not have been point guards or centers. Also, we have seen that Groce would not let the lack of scholarships get in the way of recruiting the players he wants.

Butkuser · Feb 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
We tried to stop the bleeding when there wasn't any. Groce recruited like he was desperately clinging to his job when he wasn't.

Fans will put up rebuilding with a bunch of young players under a beloved new coach. Take that opportunity, next guy.

I hate to kick a man when he's (being put) down, but I think this is a pretty succinct and accurate assessment. I know other will disagree, but his over reliance on transfers always bothered me. I would have been much more patient if we were just working through the progression of bringing along young players.