St. Louis Cardinals 2015 Season

#1,376      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
Ryllini said:
Nothing against Michael Wacha, I like him a lot, but I would suggest to you and the rest if the fanbase to check out Odorizzi. Let's not act like he is substantially older than MW, he is only 25 compared to 24. He has been the main return piece in two trades, one involving Grienke and one Shields. He isn't just some throw in, teams have seen his value.

For comparison sake, they are very similar, but I will tell you that JO plays on a significantly worse team in the Rays and he plays in a significantly deeper league in the AL, but his numbers last year don't lie. They are different pitchers, but put up similar numbers. JO is a ground ball pitcher with a nice splitter and cut fastball. He has more pitches at this point than MW.

For what you claim that MW is one of the best pitchers in baseball, well JO's numbers were slightly better across the board. He had a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, WAR, SO9, and BB9 all against better and deeper lineups in the AL.

I may have worded it a 3 for 1 in this deal, but obviously we would need to get another piece in return, but a trade like the one I suggested would free us of Matt Adams, clearing room for a Piscotty or maybe Holliday take over at first. Odorizzi and Wacha are virtually on the same deal: under team control through 2019 and not eligible for arbitration until 2017.
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Not necessarily disagreeing with your stance except the idea that JO is pitching in a deeper league when Wacha comes from a division with the top 3 records in all of baseball in 2015, and playing 38 games vs the other 2 teams.
 
#1,377      

blmillini

B
Bloomington, IL
blmillini
Ryllini said:
Nothing against Michael Wacha, I like him a lot, but I would suggest to you and the rest if the fanbase to check out Odorizzi. Let's not act like he is substantially older than MW, he is only 25 compared to 24. He has been the main return piece in two trades, one involving Grienke and one Shields. He isn't just some throw in, teams have seen his value.

For comparison sake, they are very similar, but I will tell you that JO plays on a significantly worse team in the Rays and he plays in a significantly deeper league in the AL, but his numbers last year don't lie. They are different pitchers, but put up similar numbers. JO is a ground ball pitcher with a nice splitter and cut fastball. He has more pitches at this point than MW.

For what you claim that MW is one of the best pitchers in baseball, well JO's numbers were slightly better across the board. He had a better ERA, WHIP, FIP, WAR, SO9, and BB9 all against better and deeper lineups in the AL.

I may have worded it a 3 for 1 in this deal, but obviously we would need to get another piece in return, but a trade like the one I suggested would free us of Matt Adams, clearing room for a Piscotty or maybe Holliday take over at first. Odorizzi and Wacha are virtually on the same deal: under team control through 2019 and not eligible for arbitration until 2017.
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I don't disagree that Odorizzi looks like he could be a great pitcher. I would certainly disagree with your assessment of the level of competition he played against. My argument is simply that you don't trade Wacha, and I thought based on your original post that you were suggesting Odorizzi was a much younger pitcher, which obviously isn't the case.
 
#1,378      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
illini8507 said:
Not necessarily disagreeing with your stance except the idea that JO is pitching in a deeper league when Wacha comes from a division with the top 3 records in all of baseball in 2015, and playing 38 games vs the other 2 teams.
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Can't deny that fact, but he also has to face 9 hitters every day in the AL. There are no breathers when the pitcher comes to hit. The AL has destroyed the NL head to head since 2004, the AL had 9 teams over .500 compared to 7, and the AL only had one team not reach 70 wins, the NL had 5 such teams. I'm a National League guy all the way, but top to bottom, the AL is a much tougher league to navigate. I think if you think about it and you flipped the 3 top teams from the NL central and AL central, we wouldn't have the 3 best records in baseball. Obviously teams are constructed completely different based on rules, but the numbers are there to support how they have stuffed it in our face league vs league. There are a lot of quality teams over there.

This is all message board fodder, but when I saw JO's name I started putting together scenarios for fun and put one on here. I'm obviously a believer in JO and would also hate to trade MW, but if you think about it, we actually might be gaining in such a deal if it were involve a Matty Adams and young Wacha.
 
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#1,381      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
I think I'd rather have kazmir. I guess it's also an indication that the talks with the Rays got nowhere, as I suspected they would
 
#1,382      

orangeroses07

orangeroses07
Centralia, IL
orangeroses07
I would be just fine with a deal for Leake. He's pitched pretty well in his career which has mostly been in a hitter-friendly park and he isn't attached to a draft pick.
 
#1,384      

IlliniFan85

IlliniFan85
Colorado Springs, CO
IlliniFan85
Ryllini said:
I think I'm with you. I'd take Kazmir over Leake given the choice.
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Kazmir is going to be a shorter contract vs Leake, but I'm not against either of them. I am also not against trying to get JO, but I don't want to trade Wacha, and I don't want to trade Reyes. If we could do something like Wheeler and another prospect plus Adams I think it's a good trade. I think Wheeler has upside to be at least a number 3, they would also get a 1B who could DH as well, and finally they get another prospect all of which are under team friendly contracts which Tampa loves. And if big city breaks out for them they flip him for more prospects like they always do. I'm all for having younger pitchers vs aging veterans.
 
#1,388      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
Well, I guess we can table the JO talks, Illini8507 was right about it probably not being genuine. At least it gave us something to chat about.:D

I like Leake, I think he is a fine pitcher. I am not sure how I feel about the length and amount, but he is a Cardinal now, so I ride and die with him when he is on the bump.
 
#1,389      

Deleted member 3875

D
Guest
Deleted member 3875
dgcrow said:
Yes. If Holliday appears to be making it at first base, would love to see the Cards sign Alex Gordon.
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Open up the bank bag and go get Gordon. Then let's square up vs. the Little Bears in CHI.
 
#1,390      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
carmelillini said:
Open up the bank bag and go get Gordon. Then let's square up vs. the Little Bears in CHI.
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I'm with you, but we would have to convince a former gold glover to switch positions if Holiday stays permanent to left field.
 
#1,391      

TeBee5

T
St. Louis
TeBee5
Like the addition of Leake. Contract isn't ideal but thats what happens when the market dries up of good arms. I think Leake will contribute to this team especially this season without Lynn.

With other quality OF depth and Chris Davis still on the market, I think we make another move. I don't know how big of move it will be but I hope that it addresses how serious the talk of moving Holliday to 1st really is. Would love to hide Holliday's defense at 1B with Gordon or Upton replacing him in the OF. I don't know how to link a tweet but I saw somewhere that we had contacted Denard Span's agent....I personally do not like Span but there is a reason I sit in the stands and not in the GM office.

Go Birds!
 
#1,392      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
Ryllini said:
I'm with you, but we would have to convince a former gold glover to switch positions if Holiday stays permanent to left field.
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Don't teams usually want their best defensive outfielder in RF and CF anyway? Maybe he would like the challenge of moving out of LF which is typically a place to hide weaker fielders.

Just a thought
 
#1,394      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
illini8507 said:
Don't teams usually want their best defensive outfielder in RF and CF anyway? Maybe he would like the challenge of moving out of LF which is typically a place to hide weaker fielders.

Just a thought
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Typically. I like your thought, I just don't know at 31 if he would be willing to do it. 31 definitely isn't old, but obviously he is comfortable in left. I hope we are trying to convince him of that.
 
#1,395      

illini8507

illini8507
illini8507
Ryllini said:
Typically. I like your thought, I just don't know at 31 if he would be willing to do it. 31 definitely isn't old, but obviously he is comfortable in left. I hope we are trying to convince him of that.
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Agreed. Doesn't he have quite an arm? If so right field would really be the ideal place.
 
#1,397      

Ryllini

Ryllini
Lombard
Ryllini
illini8507 said:
Agreed. Doesn't he have quite an arm? If so right field would really be the ideal place.
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He sure does. He is a very good defender. I would think he could adjust to anywhere out there, but it comes down to want to and money.
 
#1,399      

618MattD

618MattD
618MattD
Gordan actually came up as a 3B and played a little 1B and SS in his first year. He made the transition after a few years in the bigs and has only played 3 games in RF. This makes me believe that since he wasn't a natural OF that they placed him in LF to learn how to play OF in the bigs and have left him there due to familiarity.