John Groce at Illinois

[Newman]

Biggest downfalls of Groce:
1) Never got an A-list point guard
2) Never recruited healthy, mature alpha-leaders who pulled team chemistry upwards
3) Never hired assistant coaches that were older and more mature
4) Showed glimpses of out-coaching teams with better talent, but regularly beaten by Ryan, Izzo, Belien, McCaff, etc.

For those wanting the ax to fall....careful what you wish for. Here's to hoping the Animal Sciences Professor-led committee picks a great AD.....right?

That's not possible to judge yet IMO. Groce's first recruiting class are upperclassmen now, but he didn't have many options at that time. Hill was never going to be an alpha leader, I think that was easy to predict even when he was a freshmen, and it doesn't help that he's just 20 years old. I thought Nunn was going to be a candidate but it makes sense that he never became one either considering that he was on the same team as Parker. Morgan was never going to be that guy either. Maybe we'll see that from 2014 or 15 guys but we might not see that until they are upperclassmen. I think the lack of leadership goes hand in hand with having a great point guard. Although Tracy was not an elite talent, I would take his leadership in a heartbeat on almost any team.. even if he doesn't provide starter minutes. I think he's going to be extremely valuable next year even if he's not close to 100%, just due to the leadership he can bring while wearing a uniform, which is not nearly the same as what he can provide right now.

 

[Klondike]

"We are Illinois , go after the 5 stars JG !!" ....he doesnt get them...."JG wasted his time chasing 5 stars when he should have gotten 3-4 stars".......gets 3-4 stars "JG put this team together, its his fault!!" ....."JG cant coach, recruit"..... "JG has had 4 years to turn this team around, get rid of him".... "We can get a better coach than him if we pay more "....SMH... This coach and team are working hard and deserve your loyalty...GO ILLINI !!

These aren't cogent points, but I suspect you know that.

"We can get a better coach if we pay him more"...? Yes! Fantastic idea. What's wrong with that?

He didn't get the top recruits, but his big attribute was supposed to be his recruiting. It certainly isn't his coaching. So what exactly is it that you believe John Groce does well?

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

That's not possible to judge yet IMO. Groce's first recruiting class are upperclassmen now, but he didn't have many options at that time. Hill was never going to be an alpha leader, I think that was easy to predict even when he was a freshmen, and it doesn't help that he's just 20 years old. I thought Nunn was going to be a candidate but it makes sense that he never became one either considering that he was on the same team as Parker. Morgan was never going to be that guy either. Maybe we'll see that from 2014 or 15 guys but we might not see that until they are upperclassmen. I think the lack of leadership goes hand in hand with having a great point guard. Although Tracy was not an elite talent, I would take his leadership in a heartbeat on almost any team.. even if he doesn't provide starter minutes. I think he's going to be extremely valuable next year even if he's not close to 100%, just due to the leadership he can bring while wearing a uniform, which is not nearly the same as what he can provide right now.

Funny how we can compare Weber's downfall and Groce's downfall to 2 PG's decommiting.

Had Gordon came, Weber may have never been fired. That may have been the piece of 1-2 5 stars coming to Illinois every other class.

Had Snider not flipped back to Louisville (they must have had better strippers) I truly think last year and this year would have been completely different.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

Home run hires: Marshall, Kruger (highly unlikely)
Great hires: Miller, Mack (unlikely)
Good hires: Bryce Drew, Ben Jacobsen, Larry Krystkowiak

If Shad Khan is serious about wanting to influence the direction of Illinois athletics, he's more than welcome to pony up the money required to get one of the top tier guys. Drew is a realistic hire, who has had sustained success at a mid major. He has Roger Powell on staff, throw Dee on there and he could kill it on the recruiting trail. I only mention these guys to show there are options out there. We don't need to stick with what we have because there's a fear of hiring someone worse, that's never a good plan.

I don't think money is the problem, it's the mentality to spend that money. We have TV money, Nike money, the funds are there. The admin doesn't want to see UI emphasizing athletics at that kind of level, so we stay with the mid range salary guys. Until that changes, you're going to have to go after guys like Drew or some other young mid major guy.

 

[dmac279]

When are we going to realize with college sports its not all about the record a coach had in his last year here. Webber had a better kenpom rank in his last year. Who cares. This was a sinking ship with Webber, and he hadn't hit rock bottom. Rock bottom was 2-3 years away with Webber and where he had the program going. Groce has been bailing water his entire time here. From the mess Webber left and the injuries his teams have taken on. Do I think this year if fine for Illinois basketball, NOPE, and am I ok with the fact that the first real PG to commit doesn't show up until next year, NOPE, but I would like to see Groce take his first class all the way through, and see what direction he has the program in. If next years team can't get the job done, its pretty easy to send Groce on his way. Im just not there yet.

IMO, he's future depends on next years results

 

[Sal Iacuzzo]

It would be nice if we ever acted decisively when it came to a coaching change. Zook, Turner, Weber were all given extra seasons when its clear the program was going in the wrong direction. Groce is not the guy, giving him one year is just going to delay the inevitable.

 

[DudeAbides]

When are we going to realize with college sports its not all about the record a coach had in his last year here. Webber had a better kenpom rank in his last year. Who cares. This was a sinking ship with Webber, and he hadn't hit rock bottom. Rock bottom was 2-3 years away with Webber and where he had the program going. Groce has been bailing water his entire time here. From the mess Webber left and the injuries his teams have taken on. Do I think this year if fine for Illinois basketball, NOPE, and am I ok with the fact that the first real PG to commit doesn't show up until next year, NOPE, but I would like to see Groce take his first class all the way through, and see what direction he has the program in. If next years team can't get the job done, its pretty easy to send Groce on his way. Im just not there yet.

It's W-E-B-E-R. Bothers me to no end when fans of the program can't even spell the name of the coach that got us to our only CG appearance ever. :tsk:

 

[coryfor3]

Home run hires: Marshall, Kruger (highly unlikely)
Great hires: Miller, Mack (unlikely)
Good hires: Bryce Drew, Ben Jacobsen, Larry Krystkowiak

If Shad Khan is serious about wanting to influence the direction of Illinois athletics, he's more than welcome to pony up the money required to get one of the top tier guys. Drew is a realistic hire, who has had sustained success at a mid major. He has Roger Powell on staff, throw Dee on there and he could kill it on the recruiting trail. I only mention these guys to show there are options out there. We don't need to stick with what we have because there's a fear of hiring someone worse, that's never a good plan.

Sadly, non of those guys are going to come here. Maybe Bryce Drew.
Marshall has had good chances and stayed put. Miller will have some better opportunity. Mack is already at a better basketball school. Jacobson hasn't shown any desire to leave and is likely the Wisconsin coach if Bennett doesn't take it. Larry K just has no connection to Illinois or the Midwest at all other than a short period of time with the Bull and then the Bucks. Outside of money, I don't see a reason for him to come here and I don't know why he would be particularly successful here. He's a western guy and almost every single player on his roster is from the western U.S.(lots of California, Utah, etc) I'm not happy with how things are going with JG right now but I don't know that there is any real exciting and viable alternative. No reason to make a change just for change. That causes an even greater setback in recruiting.

 

[coryfor3]

It's W-E-B-E-R. Bothers me to no end when fans of the program can't even spell the name of the coach that got us to our only CG appearance ever. :tsk:

Self gets a special mention for getting the team to that game.

 

[coryfor3]

The exact low level mentality you decry Guenther for having, you then go on to have yourself saying we can't fire Groce because you don't believe Illinois can land a good coach. Think about that.

The ship sailed on a dynamic hire at this point. Guenther had the ability to do it then. At this point, it is a different job and different opportunity for coaches.

 

[dmac279]

It would be nice if we ever acted decisively when it came to a coaching change. Zook, Turner, Weber were all given extra seasons when its clear the program was going in the wrong direction. Groce is not the guy, giving him one year is just going to delay the inevitable.

If he didn't have to start from ground zero, I would agree with that. A lot of Hingis have got to change, not just Groce.

 

[zpfled]

The last two games have been severely disappointing. We *should* have beaten Nebraska. We *should* have played IU competitively.

@MSU, I didn't mind b/c we were missing Nunn on top of everything else.

@OSU, I didn't mind because we played a good team close on the road, and that's all you can ask for in the Big Ten.

Laying two giant eggs in a row after a big win and a week of rest--not ok.

I would be thrilled to see the team turn it around, because technically it could still happen. I would be thrilled for Groce to turn out to be the guy who builds this program back up into a perennial B1G contender and NCAA Tourney participant.

I no longer am optimistic about that happening, though.

 

[Klondike]

No reason to make a change just for change. That causes an even greater setback in recruiting.

I think Bryce Drew is a much better coach than the one we currently have, but reasonable people can disagree there.

As far as a setback in recruiting goes, setback from what? Landing unranked 3 stars?

 

[westms77]

In no way do I disagree with this. Weber left a talented roster for the 2012-2013 campaign. It showed and I think we saw what kind of coach JG can be. He took a team that flopped the final month of the year and seemingly turned it around. To me, he gave players like Paul, Richardson, Griffey more confidence in what they could do and it showed.

But, what Weber would have had for the 2013-2014 team, had he stayed would have been abysmal. Had he still been here for that season, it would probably be as bad as this one, record wise.

In 2003 Weber was handed the keys to a Cadillac in the desert and told to drive. Instead he drove it off a cliff multiple times. We heard the excuses, wait till he gets (insert this player) or this player. He clearly didn't have a great eye for talent. You don't come off the run we had from 2003-2006 and plummet like we did, but he sure found a way. RG passed up on way more talented coaches than Weber, but chose the doof because he knew he'd never leave, yet only the program and the fans suffered.

JG was handed a !!!! sandwich from day 1. He's done his best to turn it around. I feel like he focused too much on the homerun recruits instead of getting talent in that could win and get us back to every year Tournament appearances. In doing so he's left himself scrambling when it doesn't come through. He's been trying to bucket out water out of a sinking ship since he got here. Sadly, it keeps sinking.

I like the guy but I keep asking myself what has he done to improve the situation? This is the fourth year and not one thing is on the upswing....Oh well we finally got a PG..rated 200ish in his class....man he better be the sleeper of the century

 

[coryfor3]

I think Bryce Drew is a much better coach than the one we currently have, but reasonable people can disagree there.

As far as a setback in recruiting goes, setback from what? Landing unranked 3 stars?

A change in coaches will make every current recruit with an Illinois offer or interest stop and reevaluate their options here. That might be for the good or bad but it puts a new coach in the position of trying to make up ground on the upcoming recruiting classes unless we get a guy already familiar with recruits that could follow him here.

 

[Klondike]

A change in coaches will make every current recruit with an Illinois offer or interest stop and reevaluate their options here. That might be for the good or bad but it puts a new coach in the position of trying to make up ground on the upcoming recruiting classes unless we get a guy already familiar with recruits that could follow him here.

So we shouldn't have fired Weber because it took us out of the running for Jabari Parker, right?

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

I like the guy but I keep asking myself what has he done to improve the situation? This is the fourth year and not one thing is on the upswing....Oh well we finally got a PG..rated 200ish in his class....man he better be the sleeper of the century

He hasn't done a thing. It sure looked like things were going to turn around 2012-2013, sadly that's been his best season.

Like I said, it's year 4 and we aren't close to where we should be.

 

[zpfled]

As far as a setback in recruiting goes, setback from what? Landing unranked 3 stars?

Groce has landed some very good recruits, and is a (Froling || Tilmon) and a (Williams || Goodwin) away from having a very nice-looking roster put together for the next couple years.

Don't pretend like there isn't a lot worse we could do. Empty classes like 2006, 2008 and 2012 set the program back for years.

I for one am very pumped to see what a line up of Lucas, Nunn, Hill, Black, and Finke can do. We haven't had balanced scoring options like that across the board in a long time.

EDIT: All that considered, I still am finally losing faith in Groce because of the failure of our team to compete the last two games. I'm just sayin', recruiting has been much worse before than it is now, and we're still paying for it.

 

[Klondike]

Groce has landed some very good recruits, and is a (Froling || Tilmon) and a (Williams || Goodwin) away from having a very nice-looking roster put together for the next couple years.

Don't pretend like there isn't a lot worse we could do. Empty classes like 2006, 2008 and 2012 set the program back for years.

I for one am very pumped to see what a line up of Lucas, Nunn, Hill, Black, and Finke can do. We haven't had balanced scoring options like that across the board in a long time.

Its been since September of 2014 that coach Groce has landed a commitment from a player that wasn't an unranked 3-star. The trendline is not good.

Empty classes like 2016 aren't great, either. Were you calling 2008 empty at the time? Because that class was Dominique Keller and Stan Simpson. Probably not much different impact-wise than one unranked three star in 2016.

 

[ole 99]

I don't think money is the problem, it's the mentality to spend that money. We have TV money, Nike money, the funds are there. The admin doesn't want to see UI emphasizing athletics at that kind of level, so we stay with the mid range salary guys. Until that changes, you're going to have to go after guys like Drew or some other young mid major guy.

I think this is a very good point about IL athletics as a whole. Given everything going on with the state right now, not to mention the university, it is highly unlikely you are going to see any emphasis put on going big in athletics. IL needs to figure out what it wants to be and then put a strategy and resources in place in order to achieve it.

 

[illynifan34]

I think this is a very good point about IL athletics as a whole. Given everything going on with the state right now, not to mention the university, it is highly unlikely you are going to see any emphasis put on going big in athletics. IL needs to figure out what it wants to be and then put a strategy and resources in place in order to achieve it.

To be clear, what is going on with the state of Illinois has nothing to do with the athletic department.

 

[Deleted member 586966]

A change in coaches will make every current recruit with an Illinois offer or interest stop and reevaluate their options here. That might be for the good or bad but it puts a new coach in the position of trying to make up ground on the upcoming recruiting classes unless we get a guy already familiar with recruits that could follow him here.

Kind of. So I assume you take it that we have a lot of sway over the guys we're still chasing?

A significant part of recruiting doesn't get thrown out the window with the coach as long as you maintain interest. We're still selling the same school, conference, arena, and roster. The kids are definitely buying in on the coach too, but that doesn't always take years of ongoing relationships.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

I think this is a very good point about IL athletics as a whole. Given everything going on with the state right now, not to mention the university, it is highly unlikely you are going to see any emphasis put on going big in athletics. IL needs to figure out what it wants to be and then put a strategy and resources in place in order to achieve it.

The AD hire is so crucial and will tell us a lot about what expectations should be going forward.

 

[ole 99]

To be clear, what is going on with the state of Illinois has nothing to do with the athletic department.

Certainly not directly, but perception is reality. With all the fiscal problems of the State and the university system, I can't see the administration being keen on making headlines for spending $3-$4mm on a new coach (plus a buyout).

 

[ILL in IA]

Certainly not directly, but perception is reality. With all the fiscal problems of the State and the university system, I can't see the administration being keen on making headlines for spending $3-$4mm on a new coach (plus a buyout).

I understand the perception is reality view here, butI hope the AD hire or Coaching decisions are not linked to keeping stupid people happy because they can't see separation from the athletic department and how the state government is run.