Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (April-June 2016)

[UofIChE06]

And the Fire wouldn't get more publicity for the kids by actually making a Peach Jam final or at least past the pod stage? Especially with 3 top 5 recruits like when they had Parker, Okafor, and Alexander. The fact is they wrangle in the top prospects somehow and they roll them out to play. They do nothing to get them to play and allow lesser known players be discovered. That is not part of the agenda.

This is like arguing that Calipari makes guys into lottery picks. The entire premise is absurd as the NBA scouts are going to take the best players with the most potential if they are from Davidson just like UK. Landing high profile players does not make one a good coach or good at promoting talent.

 

[Obelix]

And the Fire wouldn't get more publicity for the kids by actually making a Peach Jam final or at least past the pod stage? Especially with 3 top 5 recruits like when they had Parker, Okafor, and Alexander.

No, they would not. You can play a short bench and win but it does not help much the rest of the players. Parker, Okafor, Alexander, etc. did get enough exposure to land at top programs. It would have done zero for their career to win another game. Not every Mac Irvin Fire is a top recruit. Mac Irvin Fire played a total of 12 players this past weekend, everyone with less than 20 mpg. People overestimate the talent compared to some of the other teams on the Nike circuit. Top talent at Illinois is down compared to other years and many on this board would not even recognize some of the names on the Mac Irvin Fire team.

 

[Serious Late]

No, they would not. You can play a short bench and win but it does not help much the rest of the players. Parker, Okafor, Alexander, etc. did get enough exposure to land at top programs. It would have done zero for their career to win another game. Not every Mac Irvin Fire is a top recruit. Mac Irvin Fire played a total of 12 players this past weekend, everyone with less than 20 mpg. People overestimate the talent compared to some of the other teams on the Nike circuit. Top talent at Illinois is down compared to other years and many on this board would not even recognize some of the names on the Mac Irvin Fire team.

So are you suggesting that other AAU programs don't showcase bench players? Mac Irvin Fire is the only program playing their bench? Don't most programs only have 7 or so players for this exact reason?

At the end of the day, there is one program in the midwest with as much talent as most all the other programs combined. Yet, at a national level their results PALE in comparison to those other programs. Call it what you want, but the Fire aren't a strong program at all based on results. They are an excellent marketing machine for themselves, but there is zero evidence that the work they put in is benefiting anything other than the Mac Irvin program.

 

[illini8507]

I thought the whole arguement was about whether the fire's results on court were subpar, not whether they do a good job getting kids scholarships, or which aspect is more important.

IMO, yeah, they should win more than they do. Maybe not this year, but they do regularly have the top talent in one of the most talent rich cities in the country.

 

[zpfled]

More from Less?


I think the mission of the summer ball clubs is to win, advance and showcase their talent. Unless they are like the Scholars from WI who have studies as part of their mission, I do not recall any team on the circuit in the last 20 years that just wanted to collect talent and go home early. For your kids to show out they have to win and have to be able to go deep and be seen more often. Primary goal is always to have them putting minutes on the clock and spreading the exposure around.

The mission of summer ball tourneys is purely to be seen by coaches. It's not uncommon for teams to leave a tourney early (even if they still have games to play) in order to make it to another tourney, just to increase exposure.

College coaches pay $500 - $600 just to get in to these events so they can see players, and more importantly, be seen by players.

Mac Irvin Fire doesn't have to win games to be a top AAU team...they just have to consistently have top talent. Coaches will always want to watch the Fire because the Fire has top talent...then top talent wants to play for the Fire because they'll get great exposure to top coaches...etc.

EDIT: I see Obelix already covered this.

 

[zpfled]

And the Fire wouldn't get more publicity for the kids by actually making a Peach Jam final or at least past the pod stage? Especially with 3 top 5 recruits like when they had Parker, Okafor, and Alexander. The fact is they wrangle in the top prospects somehow and they roll them out to play. They do nothing to get them to play and allow lesser known players be discovered. That is not part of the agenda.

This is like arguing that Calipari makes guys into lottery picks. The entire premise is absurd as the NBA scouts are going to take the best players with the most potential if they are from Davidson just like UK. Landing high profile players does not make one a good coach or good at promoting talent.

Nope. Coaches don't care if they're watching a recruit in the first round or the championship.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

At the end of the day, there is one program in the midwest with as much talent as most all the other programs combined. Yet, at a national level their results PALE in comparison to those other programs. Call it what you want, but the Fire aren't a strong program at all based on results. They are an excellent marketing machine for themselves, but there is zero evidence that the work they put in is benefiting anything other than the Mac Irvin program.

They're a marketing machine for the kids too. And not just a marketing machine but a guiding hand in the recruiting process. Someone brought up earlier that the parents are the key figures in this, and that's true, but the recruiting process is confusing and intimidating and new to most parents, the guidance of someone like Nick Irvin is very welcome to most.

People consider it gross that the Fire have less (but not none) of the fake, performative ethos of players needing to sublimate themselves within a team and prostrate themselves before college coaches, instead taking more of an approach of a transaction between equals. I think that speaks more to the continuing social power of the NCAA hypocrisy than anything about the Irvins. The Irvins results speak for themselves.

 

[zpfled]

At the end of the day, there is one program in the midwest with as much talent as most all the other programs combined. Yet, at a national level their results PALE in comparison to those other programs. Call it what you want, but the Fire aren't a strong program at all based on results. They are an excellent marketing machine for themselves, but there is zero evidence that the work they put in is benefiting anything other than the Mac Irvin program.

AAU clubs are marketing machines more than basketball teams. The Fire are great at what they are trying to do.

EDIT: And the Irvins get their kids to good college programs. They're providing a valuable service to the kids. The Irvins don't really help Illini fans much, but then again, what do they owe the Illini? Nothing.

 

[UofIChE06]

Nope. Coaches don't care if they're watching a recruit in the first round or the championship.

True but as the number of games reduces on the final day more coaches are watching less games/teams. Therefore the final games have a higher number of coaches watching. During typical pool style events coaches only watch their top targets typically because as someone pointed out already it is as much about the coaches being seen at a recruits game as anything.

So the only way recruits get "exposure" is if the college coach was going to see that recruit regardless of what team he is on or if the team progresses to the point that most coaches see the team because they are the only show in town.

 

[zpfled]

True but as the number of games reduces on the final day more coaches are watching less games/teams. Therefore the final games have a higher number of coaches watching. During typical pool style events coaches only watch their top targets typically because as someone pointed out already it is as much about the coaches being seen at a recruits game as anything.

So the only way recruits get "exposure" is if the college coach was going to see that recruit regardless of what team he is on or if the team progresses to the point that most coaches see the team because they are the only show in town.

That has to be weighed against the benefits of getting to another tournament and being seen by a different set of coaches. If a coach is at one tourney, he's probably going to see the teams he came to see. He's probably not going to stick around and watch a game that he didn't plan on watching ahead of time.

Recruits get more exposure by playing minutes in a losing effort than sitting on the bench in a championship game.

Ideally, sure, you want to win. But that is lower priority than getting minutes for everyone and playing in as many tourneys as possible.

 

[Obelix]

The mission of summer ball tourneys is purely to be seen by coaches. It's not uncommon for teams to leave a tourney early (even if they still have games to play) in order to make it to another tourney, just to increase exposure.

Yes, and I'd add that we are talking here about top 40 programs, or in the case of Mac Irvin Fire, top 20 national programs, mainly upper division competition. There are literally hundreds of AAU programs around the country and emphasis often change (e.g., fundamentals) especially at lower divisions. But never really on winning.

Not only schedules change as you noted above, but rosters as well. Players participate in different tournaments and games based on personal commitments and schedules. Most of the top players view it as simply "showcase" events and work with different skills coaches independent of AAU. College coaches also treat these events with a different perspective. They want to see many players on every team, maybe a player who they had not paid attention before, not just the top national players who they already know, and short benches for the purpose of winning. They couldn't care less who wins the game.

Again, the atmosphere at AAU is much different. Not much of team cheers, fan behavior, etc. and many of the players often hang out together independent of teams. Actually, quite a few on different AAU teams have become closer friends (e.g., Okafor, Jones) despite playing for different AAU teams and coaches over the years.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Yes, and I'd add that we are talking here about top 40 programs, or in the case of Mac Irvin Fire, top 20 national programs, mainly upper division competition. There are literally hundreds of AAU programs around the country and emphasis often change (e.g., fundamentals) especially at lower divisions. But never really on winning.

And what you wish could be the case, just as a fan of the sport of basketball, is for there to be a traveling circuit for the best high-school aged kids to play against one another with elite coaching in a skill development-focused environment. That is the way to make the best basketball players, not the playground hype video stuff that top level "showcase" AAU ball tends to be. But these AAU coaches did not create the perverse incentive structure present in the US basketball developmental pipeline. They are just doing their best for their players within that structure, which is what is most important.

The NBA and NCAA could work collaboratively with the shoe companies and major agencies to make an AAU infrastructure that developed better basketball players if they really wanted to. But there's no real incentive to do that when America already produces the best players in the world. In soccer, by contrast, those kinds of development pipelines are very carefully managed, because the arms race for a country's overall talent is so important for so many stakeholders.

 

[combes]

My biggest issue with the Fire is that they have been notorious over the years for showing up late to games and the coaches arguing a lot during games rather than coaching. I have seen them walk off the court and not finish games before, too (although that was several years ago).

I do think they underachieve for the talent they are supposed to have over the years. Perhaps some of that talent has been overrated, though.

 

[Obelix]

And what you wish could be the case, just as a fan of the sport of basketball, is for there to be a traveling circuit for the best high-school aged kids to play against one another with elite coaching in a skill development-focused environment. That is the way to make the best basketball players, not the playground hype video stuff that top level "showcase" AAU ball tends to be. But these AAU coaches did not create the perverse incentive structure present in the US basketball developmental pipeline. They are just doing their best for their players within that structure, which is what is most important.

The NBA and NCAA could work collaboratively with the shoe companies and major agencies to make an AAU infrastructure that developed better basketball players if they really wanted to. But there's no real incentive to do that when America already produces the best players in the world. In soccer, by contrast, those kinds of development pipelines are very carefully managed, because the arms race for a country's overall talent is so important for so many stakeholders.

I think there is a big difference between skills development and "winning" focus on AAU. Winning has not been the main focus on most of the AAU programs even at a lower level. My advise to parents has always been the same: If you hear "winning" as a focus on AAU basketball, run!

The top national programs do participate in the best "showcase" events, but it is far from just playground video stuff. My use of "showcase" was meant to coaches watching, not "showboating." There is no doubt that top national programs and events have the best basketball and players, it is just a level of talent. But many the players on those teams also work on fundamentals and skills with other coaches, whereas some of the other lower division/age programs have a higher emphasis on fundamentals/skills. One size does not fit all.

In general, AAU is a really good thing. Hundreds of programs keep kids involved with basketball year-round, keep them occupied with sports and out of trouble. Too much emphasis on the top programs, but that is the influence of shoe companies. But that is a necessary evil, there is a huge financial gap that shoe companies fill and without them all these tournaments would not be possible. The financial burden of AAU on players and parents can be very significant, it can get very expensive, and smaller programs struggle with that.

 

[Cubby Blue]

AAU clubs are marketing machines more than basketball teams. The Fire are great at what they are trying to do.

EDIT: And the Irvins get their kids to good college programs. They're providing a valuable service to the kids. The Irvins don't really help Illini fans much, but then again, what do they owe the Illini? Nothing.

So what you and others are saying is that the Irvins are good recruiters and marketers. And what the other side is saying is that they are terrible at actual basketball COACHING. I think everybody can agree on this if they look at it in that sense. :thumb:

 

[Second and Chalmers]

The top national programs do participate in the best "showcase" events, but it is far from just playground video stuff.

I humbly agree to disagree, but regardless, I agree with your general point that AAU serves a definite purpose and it is much better than no travel basketball for high school kids at all.

 

[TCTORNADO]

If one believes the book: "SoleInfluence:Basketball Corporate Greed and the Corruption of America's Youth (Ido,I read it twice),then one of the big purposes of AAUBB is to launder money. Lots of money exchanges hands and lots of foundations for unidentified donors. I sort of forget, what does World Wide Wes do for a living again.

 

[HC Illini]

A lot of Crystal Ball activity lately. Including recent picks for Trent Frazier, Terrence Lewis, and Jordan Goodwin to Illinois!

 

[Mike]

My biggest issue with the Fire is that they have been notorious over the years for showing up late to games and the coaches arguing a lot during games rather than coaching. I have seen them walk off the court and not finish games before, too (although that was several years ago).

I do think they underachieve for the talent they are supposed to have over the years. Perhaps some of that talent has been overrated, though.

Just to be fair, there are lots of shenanigans going on at AAU events from players, coaches, refs...

 

[IlliniBrave75]

Terrence Lewis – 2017 – SF – Playground Elite
Lewis did his thing in a blowout win over New Mexico Force. A tough, physical wing that scores a lot of points and also does the dirty work, Lewis went for 23 points in Friday’s win. The junior was 8-14 from the field. Expanding his range over the past year, Lewis shot 4-7 from three-point range. Lewis seemed to score at will. Aside from his shooting, Lewis was aggressive throughout the game, slashing from the wing and getting to the rim constantly.

- See more at: http://www.ny2lasports.com/article_one.aspx?articleid=3440#.dpuf

 

[IlliniBrave75]

SATURDAY STANDOUT PERFORMER
Terrence Lewis – 2017 – SF – Playground Elite
Arguably the best player in attendance at the Spring Extravaganza, Lewis was cooking Saturday. The 6’6 Riverside (WI) wing started the tourney Friday with 23 points, including four three-pointers, in an easy win over New Mexico Force and kept it rolling Saturday with a 26-point explosion in a win over SYF and 19 points in a double-digit win over REACH. Lewis already has a pair of high major offers from Iowa State and Auburn, and is yet another stud in the long line to come from Milwaukee. - See more at: http://www.ny2lasports.com/article_one.aspx?articleid=3442#.dpuf

 

[Newman]

SATURDAY STANDOUT PERFORMER
Terrence Lewis – 2017 – SF – Playground Elite
Arguably the best player in attendance at the Spring Extravaganza, Lewis was cooking Saturday. The 6’6 Riverside (WI) wing started the tourney Friday with 23 points, including four three-pointers, in an easy win over New Mexico Force and kept it rolling Saturday with a 26-point explosion in a win over SYF and 19 points in a double-digit win over REACH. Lewis already has a pair of high major offers from Iowa State and Auburn, and is yet another stud in the long line to come from Milwaukee. - See more at: http://www.ny2lasports.com/article_one.aspx?articleid=3442#.dpuf

Ouch.. Auburn counts as a high major offer but we don't.

 

[Bomb Squad 217]

I was gonna say... Are we not being reported as having offered?

 

[PostersLastStand]

I personally do not like AAU Basketball, but I will admit I don't even know how one would go about getting on a team like Mac Irvin Fire. My problem is I don't like shopping kids to specific universities and the wear and tear of the schedule. What happens to kids not chosen, what avenue do they have? Is the AAU just for the Elite kids?

 

[Cubby Blue]

Just to be fair, there are lots of shenanigans going on at AAU events from players, coaches, refs...

You blamin we Irish?