Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (April-June 2016)

Status
Not open for further replies.
#1,176      
Whitman is free to demonstrate John Groce's job security to Jeremiah Tilmon. It's called a contract extension. This isn't complicated, the size of a buyout is how job security is determined in the college coaching industry. Give Groce a massive new deal and this chatter is settled once and for all and all the other coaches recruiting Tilmon will have no choice but to shut up.

Whitman isn't going to do that though, because Whitman, barring a miraculous on-court turnaround that Tilmon is powerless to effect, is going to fire John Groce and get a coach he believes is a long term winner. Ideally he'd have Jeremiah Tilmon trapped in an LOI at that point, but that's a minor detail.

This is the long and short of it. It's a no-win situation right now: if Whitman were to bet big on Groce by extending him and giving him a big raise and buyout, Groce would undoubtedly be able to recruit more effectively. However, the fanbase would be outraged and Whitman's career would hinge on Groce becoming a long term winner at UI. Not a smart bet for Whitman to make given the evidence at hand. However, without that actual material vote of confidence, Groce is behind the 8-ball.

As I see it, right now Groce is in a tough spot: Whitman has effectively given him a prove-it year where Groce needs to 1) convince top 2017 talent to come to Champaign despite his tenuous job prospects, and/or 2) make the NCAA tournament with a mediocre roster. It's tough to sell a recruit on literally being your job security; Groce is essentially at a point where he has to say, "I might be on the hot seat now, but if you commit the seat cools down. I might not have won many games so far, but if you come we'll start winning." It will take a special group of kids to commit to saving the program and the coach's job.

I'm a hopeful guy by nature and I like John Groce as a person and representative of the university, so I'm crossing my fingers that the stars align. If I had to bet on an outcome, though, I'd say Groce doesn't get Tilmon, maybe doesn't get Goodwin, misses the tournament again, and is let go next spring. I hope it doesn't go down that way.
 
#1,177      
This is the long and short of it. It's a no-win situation right now: if Whitman were to bet big on Groce by extending him and giving him a big raise and buyout, Groce would undoubtedly be able to recruit more effectively. However, the fanbase would be outraged and Whitman's career would hinge on Groce becoming a long term winner at UI. Not a smart bet for Whitman to make given the evidence at hand. However, without that actual material vote of confidence, Groce is behind the 8-ball.

As I see it, right now Groce is in a tough spot: Whitman has effectively given him a prove-it year where Groce needs to 1) convince top 2017 talent to come to Champaign despite his tenuous job prospects, and/or 2) make the NCAA tournament with a mediocre roster. It's tough to sell a recruit on literally being your job security; Groce is essentially at a point where he has to say, "I might be on the hot seat now, but if you commit the seat cools down. I might not have won many games so far, but if you come we'll start winning." It will take a special group of kids to commit to saving the program and the coach's job.

I'm a hopeful guy by nature and I like John Groce as a person and representative of the university, so I'm crossing my fingers that the stars align. If I had to bet on an outcome, though, I'd say Groce doesn't get Tilmon, maybe doesn't get Goodwin, misses the tournament again, and is let go next spring. I hope it doesn't go down that way.

I'm not sure the 2017 recruiting class enters into Groce's future as much as people keep assuming.

If we're not in the tournament next year, I don't care if we have Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar committed, I will have my pitchfork firmly in hand.
 
#1,178      
I've said all along that Tilmon will be a Spring signee. Groce's future will be determined by then for sure.
 
#1,179      

sacraig

The desert
I've said all along that Tilmon will be a Spring signee. Groce's future will be determined by then for sure.

It seems to me that Tilmon has legitimate interest in Illinois, legitimate concerns about Groce's job status, and plenty of time left before he has to make a decision, so I'd tend to agree with you. It seems like the most likely scenario is that the way that Groce can seal the deal is by having a strong year next year and earning himself an extension, and then that would cause Tilmon to hop aboard.

If Groce doesn't make the tournament next year and gets canned, can can only hope that the hypothetical new coach with a fresh, long contract can go in and convince Tilmon to commit anyway (and, of course, keep the other committed players on board).
 
#1,180      
I hope he truely hope he is a silent verbal but those can change. I concur with those that say instate recruites look for excuses to cover their desire to play elsewhere. I have seen it with the CPL/AAU coaches for years.

I think it is hard for young players and families to turndown the blue bloods when they start talking dollars and the NBA. I think Tilmon would be draftable after two years and might be a very good top tier lottery pick in year 3 and 4. The problem is players don't want to wait. I thought Stone from Maryland and the plalyer from MSU needed another year and possible two. I think Groce job is safe for now barring a team meltdown this coming year.
 
#1,181      
I'm not sure the 2017 recruiting class enters into Groce's future as much as people keep assuming.

If we're not in the tournament next year, I don't care if we have Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar committed, I will have my pitchfork firmly in hand.

Well, my opinion is you need that tournament bid plus some indication that the program is going to be better going forward. That's where the 2017 class comes in. If Williams ends up being the best of that class, it's not much hope things are really getting better for the long term.
 
#1,182      

The Pontiff

Chicago, IL
Not only that, but there is no much evidence to support the assertion that if you are a McD AA, a top player, Illinois is a guaranteed path to the NBA or the shortest path to a successful NBA career. Some posters try to make the assertion that we can make a better pitch to top recruits of "come to Illinois, you will get the minutes, become a star, and get high in the draft faster than in the blue bloods." There is not much historical evidence to support that assertion.
Fair point, though as Meatloaf would say, two out three (minutes & become a star) ain't bad. :)

As for shortest path, some of those guys played in an era in which it was rare to come out early (Liberty, Hamilton, Thomas, Keene) and when they did, it was usually as a junior. Marcus Griffin went the JC route, got hurt and wasn't the same player post-injury.

Frankie could have come out in 1998, but rare for a non-Top 5 guy to do that then. Same with Dee in 2002, but he definitely didn't have NBA measurables at that time. I think Jereme would have been Jereme almost anywhere else, so can't really fault Illinois that he didn't turn out.

Ironically, it seems Illinois has done better with highly-rated non-McDs in succeeding in the NBA (Anderson, DWill, Leonard) than McDs (only Cook as was pointed out.)
 
#1,183      
Ironically, it seems Illinois has done better with highly-rated non-McDs in succeeding in the NBA (Anderson, DWill, Leonard)

Nick Anderson was a McD AA out of Simeon, played in the McD AA game 30 years ago in 1986.
 
#1,186      
Dang, I knew I should have looked that up. :) Just thought your list was a comprehensive McD one.

Illinois has had 13 McD All-Americans in its history, just that the current drought is the longest in its history (just one since 2002). More than half were in the 1980's.


1980 Derek Harper North Shore (FL) Royston, GA
1982 Bruce Douglas Quincy Senior High School Quincy, IL
1982 Efrem Winters King College Prep Chicago, IL
1985 Lowell Hamilton Providence St. Mel School Chicago, IL
1986 Nick Anderson Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1987 Marcus Liberty King College Prep Chicago, IL
1989 Deon Thomas Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1992 Richard Keene Collinsville High School Collinsville, IL
1997 Marcus Griffin Manual High School Peoria, IL
1998 Frank Williams Manual High School Peoria, IL
1999 Brian Cook Lincoln Community High School Lincoln, IL
2002 Dee Brown Proviso East Maywood, IL
2010 Jereme Richmond Waukegan High School Waukegan, IL
 
#1,188      
Well, my opinion is you need that tournament bid plus some indication that the program is going to be better going forward. That's where the 2017 class comes in. If Williams ends up being the best of that class, it's not much hope things are really getting better for the long term.

This isn't true IMO. Recruiting outside the top 20 or 30 is all about evaluating the right players and then developing them. If Groce has a good year then I'm assuming players like Finke, Black, JCL, DJW, and AJ have improved. That shows Groce can find develop the right players to make a good team. Also, Groce's big problem has been his inability to get a PG. Now he has 2, so lets see what he can do with them.
 
#1,189      

UofIChE06

Pittsburgh
Illinois has had 13 McD All-Americans in its history, just that the current drought is the longest in its history (just one since 2002). More than half were in the 1980's.


1980 Derek Harper North Shore (FL) Royston, GA
1982 Bruce Douglas Quincy Senior High School Quincy, IL
1982 Efrem Winters King College Prep Chicago, IL
1985 Lowell Hamilton Providence St. Mel School Chicago, IL
1986 Nick Anderson Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1987 Marcus Liberty King College Prep Chicago, IL
1989 Deon Thomas Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1992 Richard Keene Collinsville High School Collinsville, IL
1997 Marcus Griffin Manual High School Peoria, IL
1998 Frank Williams Manual High School Peoria, IL
1999 Brian Cook Lincoln Community High School Lincoln, IL
2002 Dee Brown Proviso East Maywood, IL
2010 Jereme Richmond Waukegan High School Waukegan, IL

It was longer between Brown and Richmond than Richmond and now
 
#1,193      
317fddfec2905254ccb9e90566b1c610.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#1,197      
Illinois has had 13 McD All-Americans in its history, just that the current drought is the longest in its history (just one since 2002). More than half were in the 1980's.


1980 Derek Harper North Shore (FL) Royston, GA
1982 Bruce Douglas Quincy Senior High School Quincy, IL
1982 Efrem Winters King College Prep Chicago, IL
1985 Lowell Hamilton Providence St. Mel School Chicago, IL
1986 Nick Anderson Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1987 Marcus Liberty King College Prep Chicago, IL
1989 Deon Thomas Simeon Career Academy Chicago, IL
1992 Richard Keene Collinsville High School Collinsville, IL
1997 Marcus Griffin Manual High School Peoria, IL
1998 Frank Williams Manual High School Peoria, IL
1999 Brian Cook Lincoln Community High School Lincoln, IL
2002 Dee Brown Proviso East Maywood, IL
2010 Jereme Richmond Waukegan High School Waukegan, IL

Well, looking at that list, here are our records with and without a McDAA on the roster and eligible to play since the beginning of Lou Henson's tenure:

With a McDAA:

526-213 (265-141 Big Ten) 19 NCAA bids in 23 years, 5 Big Ten Titles, 7 Sweet Sixteens, 2 Final Fours

Without a McDAA:

343-245 (154-172 Big Ten) 5 NCAA bids in 17 years, 1 Big Ten Title, 0 Sweet Sixteens, 0 Final Fours


This ain't rocket science folks.
 
#1,198      

blmillini

Bloomington, IL
This isn't true IMO. Recruiting outside the top 20 or 30 is all about evaluating the right players and then developing them. If Groce has a good year then I'm assuming players like Finke, Black, JCL, DJW, and AJ have improved. That shows Groce can find develop the right players to make a good team. Also, Groce's big problem has been his inability to get a PG. Now he has 2, so lets see what he can do with them.

I would argue that Groce's biggest problem has been his inability to get or develop any bigs. I still don't believe he has done that yet.
 
#1,199      
Well, looking at that list, here are our records with and without a McDAA on the roster and eligible to play since the beginning of Lou Henson's tenure:

With a McDAA:

526-213 (265-141 Big Ten) 19 NCAA bids in 23 years, 5 Big Ten Titles, 7 Sweet Sixteens, 2 Final Fours

Without a McDAA:

343-245 (154-172 Big Ten) 5 NCAA bids in 17 years, 1 Big Ten Title, 0 Sweet Sixteens, 0 Final Fours


This ain't rocket science folks.

Great research!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.