I cannot tell a lie, I posted, googled, then edited. I was close though, just missed the c at the end of Humperdinck.
2017 Coaching Carousel
- Status
I cannot tell a lie, I posted, googled, then edited. I was close though, just missed the c at the end of Humperdinck.
So, Cuonzo kind of makes the perfect rebuttal to this. He was a mid-major coach with a very similar (but inferior) resume to Keatts, and when he took the Tennessee job, with no connections to the area he immediately landed 5-star Jarnell Stokes from Memphis. Then when he went to Cal, with no West Coast connections whatsoever he immediately landed Ivan Rabb from Oakland, and then got Jaylen Brown all the way from Georgia.
You could find a dozen examples like that. Good recruiters do their work quickly. Bad ones need years to build the kinds of relationships that can get to a commitment, and they don't have a great batting average even when they get there. Or they operate like Bruce Weber where they lock down kids before anyone else is on the scene and just cross their fingers and hope they develop.
The evidence that our next coach is going to have a stronger pitch to the 2021 class than the 2018 class is very scant.
And lets not overrate the existing ties that Cuonzo has. Tracy Webster knows people in Chicago and obviously Cuonzo is familiar with the Irvins from swooping in for Charlie Moore. But it's still going to be a question of going out and selling what can happen at Illinois. It's a different pitch.
If Moore is part of a package deal with Cuonzo, I'd concede that he probably has the advantage over Keatts for Ayo Dosunmu. But Keatts doesn't have a lesser shot at Dosunmu than he has at the next big Chicago kid three years from now. If he's a big time recruiter, he's going to be one from his first footstep in Champaign.
You think that if Moore comes with Cuonzo we have a better shot at Ayo? While I'm not complaining at all isn't that creating a pretty big log jam? Unless this means we lose Fraizer which creates a bit of a scare next year.
If Moore comes I feel like we lose Frazier.
Ayo and Moore can absolutely play in the same backcourt. They have before, and obviously know one another, I would imagine that gives us a leg up.
TownieMatt
CU Expat
- Chicago
I see what you're saying, good recruiters are good recruiters, but do you think Keatts would recruit a better 2018 class at Illinois than Counzo?
Putting him in a top 5 of realistic candidates (Bennett, for example, is not someone I view as realistic) is not really far fetched or inappropriate considering his resume
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
I'll be totally honest, I can't muster up enough juice to get into a "camp" on any one of these guys. Would feel pretty good getting most of the people mentioned in any serious capacity thus far.
One of the very, very few silver linings of having the 14th-best coach in the conference, I guess.
Kramer116
- Chicago
Fair enough, but I've never seen him listed as a realistic candidate by anyone tied into this.
If he is truly a candidate, I'd put him closer to top 10 if that.
We will do better than Keatts.
I have slightly more confidence in Cuonzo than Keatts for any given class. But what I firmly believe is that Keatts would have just as good of a chance at a great 2018 class as a great 2019 or 2020 etc class. That's my point.
Projecting Keatts ability to recruit 4-5 star guys to Illinois is impossible. We won't know until he tries. People here can debate it until the cows come home - you just don't know.
On the other hand, we've got a pretty good idea Martin can do it.
We know Martin can do it to UT and Cal
(I kid, that certainly projects well for Martin, although 4* talent isn't really new to us)Keatts was lead recruiter on plenty of guys at UL that would've been great lands for us (Quentin Snider!), I think that's pretty projectable, unless you don't give Tilmon credit for Walker because he's an assistant.
Welcome back Kramer. Thanks for bringing a voice of reason.
I have a really hard time believing Whitman is going to risk his job on Keatts. As I've said, he's going to choose the safest pair of hands he can find. He's smart enough to know that this is not the right time to take a big risk.
There is one caveat here. Keatts will be considered strongly if he goes on a Cinderella run in the tournament.
Yes, Josh is a smart guy.
Josh is smarter than that, right? Winning a couple games in a tournament isn't that significant, didn't we just learn this via Groce?
I don't even know where to start with this.
These are two wrong opinions that combine to make some sort of Megazord-like super wrong.
We know Martin can do it to UT and Cal
Keatts was lead recruiter on plenty of guys at UL that would've been great lands for us (Quentin Snider!), I think that's pretty projectable, unless you don't give Tilmon credit for Walker because he's an assistant.
You can believe what you want, but you have no idea. You have no idea how important Keatts was and whether he can recruit without Pitino and the Louisville brand and recruiting machine behind him. YOU JUST DON"T KNOW.
We don't know that Cuonzo can marshal the Illini brand to great success in recruiting either.
We have more substance to make us confident, but we don't know.
Yes, Josh is a smart guy.
Josh is smarter than that, right? Winning a couple games in a tournament isn't that significant, didn't we just learn this via Groce?
I should clarify, by Cinderalla, I mean a Shaka-like Final Four run. Not a Sweet 16. A mid-major Final Four run has been somewhat predictive of coaching success. People can debate this now.
Last edited:
Kramer116
- Chicago
The way I see it:
The coach we hire comes from either P5 or NBA we are not hiring small school coach.
That coach will have his staff in place already with at least one former college head coach as main x and o guy. Walker will have a spot to help bridge the regimes and to build on STL momentum. Last guy will be another recruiter working with said coach already or one who has personal connection to coach in important areas recruiting wise.
Whitman is not going to just fire Groce without all of this vetted and figured out first.
The coach we hire comes from either P5 or NBA we are not hiring small school coach.
That coach will have his staff in place already with at least one former college head coach as main x and o guy. Walker will have a spot to help bridge the regimes and to build on STL momentum. Last guy will be another recruiter working with said coach already or one who has personal connection to coach in important areas recruiting wise.
Whitman is not going to just fire Groce without all of this vetted and figured out first.
Exactly.
One big advantage Martin has over Keatts in my mind is experience in building a coaching staff at a major program. Keatts is a relative newcomer to the college game starting in 2011, so his assistant coaching options may be somewhat limited.
On the flip side Martin has been in the game since 2000 and coached with and against a myriad of college coaches. He has built staffs at other P5 schools which Keatts has yet to do.
I'm not saying Keatts couldn't lure high end Assistants to Illinois with enough money but you don't know how the relationships will work if you haven't worked with them before.
Martin just has a lot more experience in this area. Something to consider.
On the flip side Martin has been in the game since 2000 and coached with and against a myriad of college coaches. He has built staffs at other P5 schools which Keatts has yet to do.
I'm not saying Keatts couldn't lure high end Assistants to Illinois with enough money but you don't know how the relationships will work if you haven't worked with them before.
Martin just has a lot more experience in this area. Something to consider.
Lots of people have mentioned this, but do you have any reason to believe Walker would stay?
Heh, heh. Purely anecdotal until some eager beaver figures it out. Might be more interesting to find coaches that took a less school to a Final Four and then failed when they moved up.
A few mid-major Final Four names: Shaka, Jim Larranaga, Gregg Marshall, Brad Stevens.
Not mid-majors, but certainly lesser programs: Pitino @ Providence, Calipari @ UMass, and our own Lou Henson @ New Mexico St.
Last edited:
- Status