Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2018)

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

The same Dee Brown who won the Cousy award as a senior? They saw him play point guard plenty.

Head moved up in the draft based on his play in pre-draft camp.

BTW, Derek Harper's draft stock exploded after freshman Bruce Douglas became the primary point guard and Harper moved to shooting guard his junior season. Harper played lead / point guard for 16 years in the NBA.

I like Trent and Dee but neither, Cousy award or not are close to Harper. Harp talked more than any Illini ever did and he backed it up. Plus it was a much more physical game back then. How many Illini guards have NBA numbers retired?

 

[grue]

There are plenty of minutes for three good guards. The question is are there enough minutes for four good guards? Ayo, Frazier, Ramey, Williams. The practices, with two of those on each squad should help all of them improve.

 

[illini62707]

Ramey, would be a great addition to this team and all three would co-exist just fine. Nobody's skills would go unnoticed by the NBA. Would Ramey want to be a part of a situation like the one at IL ; i'm hoping the answer is yes. What a back court that would be.

 

[Obelix]

Dee was drafted by the NBA as a point guard and played point guard in the NBA. (unlike Head who was sort of an undersized sparkplug 2 with the Rockets) He would have been a first round draft pick as a point guard had he left after 2005.

He was drafted as PG, because exactly the reason that I explained, unless you are a tremendously gifted athlete or shooter, the NBA has less interest in undersized SG's. He had a gifted personality and the Jazz also stated that their interest (in his short stint) was the leadership he would bring in the clubhouse and chemistry with Deron, so reasons beyond just on court performance. Unfortunately, his point guard skills were not NBA level. And IIRC there was some incident he was involved (was it in a night club?) so some of the off-court leadership hopes did not materialize either.

Dee was never projected as first round pick, even in 2005 when he declared he was projected at 2nd round pick and self-admitted that in his announcement, also offering praise to other 2nd round picks (e.g., Chris Duhon) who had worked to make the league. His buddies (Deron, Luther, Roger) were all leaving so he felt his cycle had been completed. He knew he was going second round.

And he said Friday that even if he remains projected as a second-round pick, he wouldn't rule out staying in the draft...

'I'm a big Chris Duhon fan now,' Brown said. 'He got picked second round, probably people were disappointed. But now look at him. Chris Duhon's probably making $400,000 (a year). I'll play basketball for $100,000.'

He's aware that some will think this a foolish pursuit, but Brown has heard naysayers before. And he said no scout's projection will determine his NBA future.

http://www.news-gazette.com/sports/...-19/memory-lane-dee-declares-early-draft.html

 

[Deleted member 631370]

I'm a bit surprised that so many people are optimistic about Ramey.

I just don't get it.

But admittedly, I'm making big assumptions. The biggest of which is that I assume Ramey sees Ayo and Frazier and thinks "hmm, Illinois is intriguing, but I'm not a big fan of the logjam at PG".

 

[Deleted member 631370]

Gotta agree with this. Especially when Miznoz is wide open for him.

Maybe he won’t go there...but early playing time and representing the state school are a draw we always talk about for Illinois guys. It may factor in here as well.

Yep.

I would gladly take Ramey. Would I be a bit concerned about the chemistry issues of bringing on another stud PG that presumably wants the ball in his hands? Yes. Ensuring that 2 top-level PGs get enough touches to keep them satisfied is doable. But 3? I honestly don't know. But I guess that's a problem that elite schools deal with all the time, and it's a good problem to have.

If nothing else, getting Ramey denies Mizzou the stud PG they desperately need.

But yeah.....Mizzou makes too much sense. Even Texas and Oklahoma State seem like better options than Illinois if he's looking for a combination of playing time and exposure.

I won't sit here and criticize the staff for devoting time to pursuing him. They have the best read on his recruitment. All things being equal, i'd rather us focus that attention on 2019 guys and push for a Feliz commitment to recoup the TJL loss. Feliz gives us more class balance as well. But this is why the staff gets paid big dollars.

 

[Deleted member 342779]

Umm, he attempted

Actually, Dee was a PG in the NBA.

To play PG in the NBA, because he didn’t have the size to play anywhere else. Dees game was always about the intangibles, his hustle, his will to win. But an NBA level pg, he was not.

 

[Obelix]

Actually, Dee was a PG in the NBA.

Dee did not stick in the NBA other than a cup of coffee because he did not have NBA PG skills, i.e., he did not have PG skills that would cut it in the NBA. Actually his PG skills did not even cut it at Euroleague level either, a cup of coffee there also. The NBA has no interest in undersized SG, unless you are a tremendous athlete or shooter... and still. They were not going to play Dee as a SG, and I have seen all three, they would not be interested in Ayo, Frazier and Ramey at SG either. Their career really depends on developing and showcasing their PG skills. They know that, they understand that. They do not buy into the mantra of "let me play SG in college" it will be OK.

People bring Dee and Deron, Harper and Douglas, etc. as examples. There is no problem playing 2 PGs in the same lineup. Coaches do it all the time, I do it too and I am in favor. Ramey is facing a different situation. We already have Dee and Deron (Ayo and Frazier). And Luther did not create the same situation either. Luther never played PG at Illinois, and we do have Luther too. Damonte Williams is the equivalent of Luther, actually with more PG skills IMO. It is a different situation that Ramey is facing.

The last true freshman PG who had the impact of Frazier was Kiwane Garris. If Kiwane had finished his freshman year, and Dee had committed to Illinois, do you think that Deron would have committed?

Don't argue that Ramey could help the Illini or you should take him too. Of course we'd love to get Ramey. Really good player. But look at the decision from his standpoint.

 

[Obelix]

To play PG in the NBA, because he didn’t have the size to play anywhere else. Dees game was always about the intangibles, his hustle, his will to win. But an NBA level pg, he was not.

Exactly.

 

[illinitiger]

I'm a bit surprised that so many people are optimistic about Ramey.

I just don't get it.

But admittedly, I'm making big assumptions. The biggest of which is that I assume Ramey sees Ayo and Frazier and thinks "hmm, Illinois is intriguing, but I'm not a big fan of the logjam at PG".

Brunson was thinking the same thing when he picked Nova with a "logjam"

 

[Second and Chalmers]

But look at the decision from his standpoint.

To supplement that picture of his viewpoint, Ramey had an AAU teammate on the team this year. I don't think Mark Smith will be offering a ringing endorsement of his experience.

 

[Obelix]

To supplement that picture of his viewpoint, Ramey had an AAU teammate on the team this year. I don't think Mark Smith will be offering a ringing endorsement of his experience.

Yeah, and I honestly think that Mark Smith is a great kid who will not proactively influence players not to go to Illinois, but area players (e.g., Liddell, Ramey) seeing their buddy not having a positive experience at Illinois is definitely not a positive development in those recruitments. It makes them so much harder.

 

[illini62707]

I don't think Ramey ends up at IL although i wish he would. As far as MO, i'd think twice. You have 2 key players who will be thinking NBA after next year. Do I want to be at MO if those guys are gone after one year.

 

[unapalmerclassic]

I say first come first serve.

 

[Obelix]

Brunson was thinking the same thing when he picked Nova with a "logjam"

I think it was different. Villanova did have Arcidiacono at PG and Dylan Ennis and Josh Hart play 2/3. Wright did convince Brunson that he would be able to coexist with Arcidiacono, which created a similar situation to Dee/Deron, Frazier/Ayo, etc. but not more.

Obviously, by Brunson joining it automatically meant that Dylan Ennis's minutes would decrease (even as a SG) and his touches at PG would disappear. Dylan Ennis decided to transfer and his father and him made no secret that Dylan loved Villanova but they though it was to his best interest to go somewhere else that he would get more touches and also play PG. If you remember, Groce and the Illini recruited Dylan very hard, with the promise of letting him play PG (a huge gap for us). He decided on Oregon.

Dylan Ennis transferring was IMO the same situation as Mark Smith transferring (Brunson/Ayo joining means less minutes and touches at PG).

 

[NunnBetter]

Yeah, and I honestly think that Mark Smith is a great kid who will not proactively influence players not to go to Illinois, but area players (e.g., Liddell, Ramey) seeing their buddy not having a positive experience at Illinois is definitely not a positive development in those recruitments. It makes them so much harder.

But on the other hand wouldn't they see he was given every opportunity to succeed and just couldn't?

 

[Deleted member 500209]

I'm not sure Coach U has had a player average 30 minutes a game let alone 40.

I consider the quest to make it to the NBA more of a predator preparation than a walk across a firld to get to the food plot. Lion cubs fight each other, not just to play and establish dominance, but also to prepare themselve for battle to defend the pride’s territory. They each become stronger by challenging each other. As they become better fighters individually, they become more equipped to do battle alone AND together to defend the territory. Those tiger cubs that dont prepare themselves with enough playful battle against their strongest siblings will do themselves and their pride a disservice by not preparing either themselves or the pride for battle. They’ll get eaten up by the competition.
If anyone is good enough to make the NBA, they are good enough to compete against two other teammates for playing time.

I dont think spending resources on Ramey is a waste. As others have said hls dad is an AAU coach. A relationship with the dad is important. Lidell may follow Ramey - i have no idea if there is any tusth to that.

That being said, i doubt Ramey is an Illini. The only way the average guy gets the date with the hot girl is because he put forth the effort. Lets give it a shot and we still benefit from the time investment of the relationship with dad even if we don’t get Courtney.

 

[Obelix]

But on the other hand wouldn't they see he was given every opportunity to succeed and just couldn't?

He was given every opportunity IMO. I think BU was convinced Mark Smith was the cornerstone of his backcourt going into the season. I have never seen a coach offering so much praise for a freshman (to a fault) and pretty much inserting him and keeping him in the starting lineup by default. One can easily make the case that Frazier was never given the same opportunities, but he obviously beat him by a mile, fairly and squarely. It was not even close.

Then again, I am not sure 17-18 year old friends have the maturity to see it from an unbiased perspective.

 

[Foggy Notion]

To play PG in the NBA, because he didn’t have the size to play anywhere else. Dees game was always about the intangibles, his hustle, his will to win. But an NBA level pg, he was not.

He played extended and meaningful minutes in the playoffs for a good team that advanced to the western conference finals.

 

[Deleted member 631370]

Brunson was thinking the same thing when he picked Nova with a "logjam"

Villanova had a senior -- Ryan Arcidiacano -- ahead of him. Who else was in this Villanova logjam at PG?

Big difference between going to a school with a senior at PG, and going to a school with a stud sophomore and a 5* freshman at PG.

 

[Deleted member 631370]

I don't think Ramey ends up at IL although i wish he would. As far as MO, i'd think twice. You have 2 key players who will be thinking NBA after next year. Do I want to be at MO if those guys are gone after one year.

I don't know.....he'll have at least one year with both Tilmon and Jontay Porter. That's pretty good. And more than likely, he'll get EJ Liddell the following year.

When you commit to a guy like Cuonzo Martin, you just assume that you'll be playing alongside talented kids. Cuonzo's teams are usually very talented. That's hardly ever the issue.

If I were Ramey and proximity to home was important, then I'd probably lean Mizzou over Illinois. If proximity to home wasn't a decisive issue, I'd give Texas a really good look. Shaka plays an up tempo style, he'll get PT pretty early, and he'll never have to be afraid of not having talented guys around him.

 

[illinitiger]

I don't know.....he'll have at least one year with both Tilmon and Jontay Porter. That's pretty good. And more than likely, he'll get EJ Liddell the following year.

When you commit to a guy like Cuonzo Martin, you just assume that you'll be playing alongside talented kids. Cuonzo's teams are usually very talented. That's hardly ever the issue.

If I were Ramey and proximity to home was important, then I'd probably lean Mizzou over Illinois. If proximity to home wasn't a decisive issue, I'd give Texas a really good look. Shaka plays an up tempo style, he'll get PT pretty early, and he'll never have to be afraid of not having talented guys around him.

If location doesnt matter, Id pick Nova if I were Ramey.

 

[illiniguy24]

Our 2002 recruiting class featured a five star PG, a four star SG and 2 three star big men. While one of the big men was irrelevant, we could see a similar class this year if we land Tevian Jones.

All it takes is the right group of players who buy in, a little talent and the right coaching. After years of striking out on that for years, I’d have to think our luck is going to change here soon with this class and the next one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[The Dave]

I think we end up with Trice, Jones and Felix.
Three players that fit our needs and two of the three will be gone in two years that helps with class balance.

I'm not even going to try and guess who we'll get (I have my thoughts, but they aren't based on anything concrete).

I think one thing people are overlooking is the last part. Class Balance. If we filled up all or open scholarships with more true freshman I think we'd be in trouble again in short order. Transfers, inability to sign quality players in future classes, and so forth.

If we truly think we have guys going pro in 1 or 2 years that alleviates that fear, but I doubt we have many/any. Ayo is a candidate, but far from assured.

 

[Obelix]

JMO but there is no way we sign 3 more players that are freshmen, JUCOs, or true transfers. That would mean going into fall recruiting with 1 available scholarship. The most likely scenario IMO is 2 at max from that group. Obviously, 5th year transfers have no effect on scholarships.

I also believe that when all said and done, the 2019 class will have 4 players, at least 3 in the fall.