Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (May-June 2018)

[pruman91]

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...cle_64d7ded8-884e-5c70-a3ce-d858d16edefa.html

Just ask 6-foot-8 forward Parker Braun, who passed on several power conference scholarship offers to walk on with the Tigers. Braun is a Missouri legacy from the Sandbothe basketball family.

But it was the Porters — Jontay and assistant coach Michael Porter Sr. — and their summer basketball connection that helped lure him to Boone County. As a high-energy power forward with plenty of growth potential, Braun could become a classic long-haul fit for Martin.

His arrival could be one of the many residual benefits from Porter’s decision to return.

 

[illini80]

I agree 100% with this part. It is naturally a lower chance that it works out for each project, but when we have major gaps in the frontcourt, and higher ranked recruits are all gone, the more projects (i.e., tries) you have, the higher the chances that some (at least one) may pan out next year. That is what is happening IMO. There WILL be attrition next year, no doubt.



That is the part that I don't agree with. IF you only believe that this player will not contribute next year, and you recruit him solely as a longer term developmental play, you are practically wasting a scholarship unless you believe that there is no way you can recruit with that scholarship a higher ranked player in the 2019 class. IF we do not believe that we can get someone better than Braun in the frontcourt in the 2019 class, then we have bigger issues than I thought (which was my original post/point).

I'd love to recruit a highly ranked prospect, but I haven't seen that happen yet for a big man. Even with a guy like Leonard, his first 2 years were no better than mediocre. At this point I'd take an athletic "project" who could be solid in 2 years vs a wait til next year and see what happens. If we find a guy, I'm 100% certain we can make room.

 

[Ga65]

Agree

 

[BananaShampoo]

Just saw on "Future 15" Trevion Williams 6'9"" 230# 2018 from Detroit with an offer from UI. Find no other reference to this elsewhere. Also offers from MSU, Xavier, and others. #84 4*

Might want to check the date on that since he's already committed to Purdon't.

 

[Obelix]

Even with a guy like Leonard, his first 2 years were no better than mediocre.

In his second year, Leonard averaged 13.6ppg and 8.2rpg. That is very good. The chances that you can get production from a very low ranked recruit in his second year (i.e., a project) are extremely small.

Right now the pool of available recruits is very very small, so even if you exclude the higher ranked recruits, chances for better players (even lower ranked) are not very good. We can all hope for a surprise emergence, but realistically, it might not happen.

 

[SKane]

We have spent five pages discussing Parker Braun to Missouri.

I know it is a slow time of year but.....

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

In his second year, Leonard averaged 13.6ppg and 8.2rpg. That is very good. The chances that you can get production from a very low ranked recruit in his second year (i.e., a project) are extremely small.

Right now the pool of available recruits is very very small, so even if you exclude the higher ranked recruits, chances for better players (even lower ranked) are not very good. We can all hope for a surprise emergence, but realistically, it might not happen.

The more players we have the more likely it happens. Plus I think it not always about rankings. I get annoyed always talking about rankings. Arent the coaches that make millions of dollars better at evaluating talent than some 247 guy? Often big guys are slower developing so who knows what may happen? Gill was the lowest rated in his class, TF expectations werent nearly what MS were. I remember the Loyola big kid last season. I certainly hope someone challenges or is better and surpasses Ebo at the 5 unless he can improve offensively. If that will happen or who it may be I dont know. I wish I knew how BU really feels about who he foresees at the 5 when B10 season rolls around. That player may not even be on the roster yet.
.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

I think Ebo will be serviceable. If Kane passes him because he's that good then great. I certainly hope that Ebo is so good we have to keep him in but Kane shows enough promise to get major minutes. We need them both.

If Ebo gets passed by a freshman, we're going to be in real trouble... Like worse than last year trouble.

I disagree. If Ayo, Griffin, Tevan or anyone passes whomever and a position is stronger then how is that a bad thing for our team? If we are recruiting better players that's a good thing imo. We know the returning players pretty well I would think. Competition or if a new player is better then the team should be. Unless someone just suddenly shows us something we have never seen from them. I think we have a reasonable idea what to expect from our returning players. The 5 is our weakest position so that why I hope someone has a skill set BU sees we may not. It could be any of them or a player that is not even signed yet. I dont think it unrealistic to think someone could surpass Ebo. I'm glad we have him on our squad but to think one of our incoming freshman or a transfer can't challenge unless Ebo is much improved may be a stretch. I dont think Ebo will regress but I do think a new recruit or transfer could be a better player. How could that would be a bad thing?

 

[Joseph Kerr]

Steph Curry and Draymond Green were not rated coming out of high school. To systematically rank every kid in the nation is a difficult task. A kid who plays zone in high school for four years may look to be weak on defense or if they happen to play on a team that favors other people on offense (Guard vs big men). There is taking the best talent in the nation and winning on that (think blue blood) and then there is the teams like Gonzaga of the past, Nevada of today, etc. who coach a system, plug the people they like into that system and win, and all of a sudden, they have a lot of talent. Seriously, last year at this time, ya'all did pick Nevada to win it all right? We all agree we have really good guards and wings so the 1-3 doesn't worry us. We do worry about the 4 although I think the small forwards we have are quick and physical enough to crash the boards, although a really good 4 would make the deal (Whitney perchance?) The 5, crapshoot. So, who said we should recruit Tacko Fall out of high school? What we need is a physical presence in the paint that can swat a ball. The physical presence may come from three bodies rotated but Ebo and Kane could end up being the James Griffin/Derek Holcomb combo. The advantage of being old is remember a team of middling size with just three people on it with size to play center. I like our chances if they play strong defense and look for their opportunities for tips ins, drop off passes from penetrations, etc.I'm not saying they will beat everyone, but it still will be fun to watch and to see the players develop. Some of you think we should be recruiting one and dones when that has never been us or an U of I strength. It would be nice to see a team play together three years and win it all than three teams of highly recruited players miss every year but move on the NBA. Count me excited.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

Steph Curry and Draymond Green were not rated coming out of high school. To systematically rank every kid in the nation is a difficult task. A kid who plays zone in high school for four years may look to be weak on defense or if they happen to play on a team that favors other people on offense (Guard vs big men). There is taking the best talent in the nation and winning on that (think blue blood) and then there is the teams like Gonzaga of the past, Nevada of today, etc. who coach a system, plug the people they like into that system and win, and all of a sudden, they have a lot of talent. Seriously, last year at this time, ya'all did pick Nevada to win it all right? We all agree we have really good guards and wings so the 1-3 doesn't worry us. We do worry about the 4 although I think the small forwards we have are quick and physical enough to crash the boards, although a really good 4 would make the deal (Whitney perchance?) The 5, crapshoot. So, who said we should recruit Tacko Fall out of high school? What we need is a physical presence in the paint that can swat a ball. The physical presence may come from three bodies rotated but Ebo and Kane could end up being the James Griffin/Derek Holcomb combo. The advantage of being old is remember a team of middling size with just three people on it with size to play center. I like our chances if they play strong defense and look for their opportunities for tips ins, drop off passes from penetrations, etc.I'm not saying they will beat everyone, but it still will be fun to watch and to see the players develop. Some of you think we should be recruiting one and dones when that has never been us or an U of I strength. It would be nice to see a team play together three years and win it all than three teams of highly recruited players miss every year but move on the NBA. Count me excited.

I like your post and agree with most of it too. I think that with the loss of Black that someone is going to have to really step up and shoot the ball well to stretch the opponents defense. Tf and Kipper should be able to score from the outside but someone else is going to need to. I would hope in of our 5s can do more than make lay ups and tip in as well as hit free throws. If one of them cant then that will only add to the load TF and Kipper must carry. We shall see. I think if Ayo can shoot it then he will able to get by guys at the B10 level and make it easier for Jordan to get some clean looks. It would be nice if a 5 needed doubled too to help get open shots too.

I think we are still looking hard at all our options and we will recruit someone that can provide that. I am not sure what grad transfers ot others may be out there but I bet someone will come along. I also wouldnt ve shocked if Georgi did better than people expect.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

A freshman big rarely plays 20+ minutes and is the starter unless the other player is just that much worse than the upper classman or he's a stud. Even 5 star Freshman bigs are rarely such. That's why

Most B10 teams have more than one returning 5 on the roster too. Much less just a sophomore. I would be shocked if Ebo starts all season at the 5. I also wouldnt ve shocked if he gets surpassed but who knows really knows? I think we will have 4 guys at least that can play the 5 by the start of the season. Transfers or someone else could surpass him. We have no idea who is even going to be on our team yet.

 

[Joseph Kerr]

Green was top 50

Rivals had him at 132 Russel Westbrook, unranked by Rivals. My point was they were not considered major recruits and yet we see time and time again, that sometimes the system improves the athlete, sometimes the athletes are the system. Who wouldn't want the best players? Hire their dad... Until then, we hope to find role players who will accomplish what we wish. I'm a big fan of the Celtics this year. The year wasn't diminished by losing, but how far they went against teams with superstars.

 

[goillini30]

Rivals had him at 132 Russel Westbrook, unranked by Rivals. My point was they were not considered major recruits and yet we see time and time again, that sometimes the system improves the athlete, sometimes the athletes are the system. Who wouldn't want the best players? Hire their dad... Until then, we hope to find role players who will accomplish what we wish. I'm a big fan of the Celtics this year. The year wasn't diminished by losing, but how far they went against teams with superstars.

Even with the injuries the Celtics top 6 were drafted 3, 3, 3, 6, 14 and 16, so they still had plenty of talent.

 

[Obelix]

Arent the coaches that make millions of dollars better at evaluating talent than some 247 guy?

I don't know, rankings cost us zero and I have less of an issue with the rankings the last 12 years, I actually think they have done a decent job versus the terrible job the coaches who make those millions of dollars have done at UI. Do they get to give us back those millions of dollars since they failed miserably?

 

[Joseph Kerr]

Even with the injuries the Celtics top 6 were drafted 3, 3, 3, 6, 14 and 16, so they still had plenty of talent.

Yes....every team starts 5 people with talent, take away their two best guys and have a host of injuries. I'm confused by the pessimistic nature of the posters. I make a reference to a team that excelled beyond anyone's thinking, without the superstars ( a rookie led them in scoring in the playoffs) and the argument is yes but they had plenty of talent still? By your logic their were 39 better players in the NBA just in their own drafts. Take the two best players off of a B10 team when the season starts and tell me if you think they will do better or worse? All I was saying, optimist that I am, is that not all ranked (or drafted players) work out to expectation (-look who was ranked ahead of Draymond coming out of high school) and look at who overachieves the rankings/draft to become really good college players. The Celtics all agreed that coaching was the key. Reading this board, you would think doom and gloom. I enjoyed watching last year, more so than any other year in a long time. I expect I will do the same this year. Would you feel better to have had a better recruiting coach raising expectations and then falling anyway. I think the talent is there and you are overlooking the ability of our wings. Defense needs improved with less fouling and we need some bigs to be waiting in the middle who will make them hesitate. Again, find some point to argue that doesn't diminish my thoughts. Cavaliers without James but you get Tatum, do they still win? No. James carried them like the man he is.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I don't know, rankings cost us zero and I have less of an issue with the rankings the last 12 years, I actually think they have done a decent job versus the terrible job the coaches who make those millions of dollars have done at UI. Do they get to give us back those millions of dollars since they failed miserably?

Offer lists are your friend.

 

[goillini30]

Yes....every team starts 5 people with talent, take away their two best guys and have a host of injuries. I'm confused by the pessimistic nature of the posters. I make a reference to a team that excelled beyond anyone's thinking, without the superstars ( a rookie led them in scoring in the playoffs) and the argument is yes but they had plenty of talent still? By your logic their were 39 better players in the NBA just in their own drafts. Take the two best players off of a B10 team when the season starts and tell me if you think they will do better or worse? All I was saying, optimist that I am, is that not all ranked (or drafted players) work out to expectation (-look who was ranked ahead of Draymond coming out of high school) and look at who overachieves the rankings/draft to become really good college players. The Celtics all agreed that coaching was the key. Reading this board, you would think doom and gloom. I enjoyed watching last year, more so than any other year in a long time. I expect I will do the same this year. Would you feel better to have had a better recruiting coach raising expectations and then falling anyway. I think the talent is there and you are overlooking the ability of our wings. Defense needs improved with less fouling and we need some bigs to be waiting in the middle who will make them hesitate. Again, find some point to argue that doesn't diminish my thoughts. Cavaliers without James but you get Tatum, do they still win? No. James carried them like the man he is.

My point was just that it's a little overblown how decimated by injuries they were. They have probably the deepest roster in the NBA, so if any team could overcome injuries to 2 of their top 3 (not sure Heyward is ahead of horford) it was them. Obviously they have the advantage of great coaching, but they also have a ton of talent, even if some is still young and developing.

I actually didn't hate last season, I thought we played hard, and you could see the comfort in the offense get better toward the end. I'm not sure that the defense really fit our roster, but obviously BU is working on that. Clearly we need to upgrade the roster to get back to the level of the early 00's, but I think it's headed in the right direction.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

I don't know, rankings cost us zero and I have less of an issue with the rankings the last 12 years, I actually think they have done a decent job versus the terrible job the coaches who make those millions of dollars have done at UI. Do they get to give us back those millions of dollars since they failed miserably?

I think Groce did a great job evaluating talent. He just failed to sign most of them or put all his eggs in one or two baskets with a few top high schoolers like Evans, CA, Bragg and a few others and transfers Evans and Clarkson. Then was unsuccessful due to not enough of a backup plan. Plus some players like Nunn or transfers like DP got in trouble. Evaluating isnt where Groce failed. He was often among the first on a player. When he didnt get plan A or B he didnt have a good plan C ot D.
When BU the staff are out there recruiting it i's clear there is a difference in how he spreads his staff around looking at lot more globally. He certainly isn't concerned with others rankings.

 

[Dan]

Illinois has offered 2019 @TeamBreakdown forward Kai Jones and 2020 guard Jamal Mashburn Jr
https://twitter.com/coreyevans_10/status/1003044439248420864

 

[Applegate20]

Illinois has offered 2019 @TeamBreakdown forward Kai Jones and 2020 guard Jamal Mashburn Jr
https://twitter.com/coreyevans_10/status/1003044439248420864

Everyone in the country will be offering Kai Jones after this weekend. Highest upside of any kid UI is currently recruiting

 

[Obelix]

I think Groce did a great job evaluating talent. He just failed to sign most of them or put all his eggs in one or two baskets with a few top high schoolers like Evans, CA, Bragg and a few others and transfers Evans and Clarkson. Then was unsuccessful due to not enough of a backup plan. Plus some players like Nunn or transfers like DP got in trouble. Evaluating isnt where Groce failed. He was often among the first on a player. When he didnt get plan A or B he didnt have a good plan C ot D.
When BU the staff are out there recruiting it i's clear there is a difference in how he spreads his staff around looking at lot more globally. He certainly isn't concerned with others rankings.

Just because someone is paid millions does not make him a good evaluator or better at ranking players, or even better at coaching either. Just because the CEO of Lehman Brothers got paid millions, did not make him good at his job. People often said that, our coach is paid millions, so he must be better at ranking players, that is not necessarily true. Many coaches failed, many recruited players that they shouldn't.

No ranking system will ever be perfect, but I have yet to see a coach, or an ex-coach, to have developed a better ranking system that the current ones.

Furthermore, it is incorrect that because a coach has signed a low ranked player that it must be the rankings that are wrong and the player is better. There are many reasons that a coach signs a player, including availability of players or ability to sign high ranked players. Most of the times it is more who you can get, rather who you really want. There is definitely correlation between rankings and players' ability/talent.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

I'm not sure why you quoted that post since your response doesn't really address anything River said. He seems to have pretty much nailed the reality of how things were during that period of UI basketball. Maybe you were agreeing? I'm not sure.

That aside, I will agree with the bolded though. Because that actually applies to 98% of the coaches out there, so it's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation and I feel like the majority of IL posters understand this already.

I love what I'm seeing with our recruiting. I don't have unrealistic expectations. We got our 'pie in the sky' recruit with Ayo. Maybe a couple 'Diamonds in the Rough' with Jones and Griffin. I feel like most people outside of IL think we've done a great job recruiting under the circumstances.

Yet, the old tried and true standard always applies: TIME WILL TELL!

Agreed!

He just likes to argue with me. We disagree about the importance of an inside game to and working the ball inside out. That the state of the game and big men are better now which is hogwash. I dont want our guards always chucking step back threes due to no inside presence. Going 0-22 or 0-27 from three. It is important to have a solid big guy that can rebound, play solid D, protect the rim, has some type of mid range game, and can pass out of a double team for quality looks from three. I thought of a discussion he and I had recently. They were interviewing Drexler and he was asked what if the Rockets had Hakeem? He laughed and said ^Hakeems Hakerm" they would a gotten better shots and he would a had 50 and 25. A 6'4" had 28 rebounds vs Golden State in games 6 and 7. The Illini need a good big guy for similar reasons. Most teams dont have one. They dont need to be a superstar just good enough.
We need to sign, recruit and develop our big guys and they need to play defense, rebound, and be a threat to be guarded outside of 5 feet. I think we can do that. If not we will find that as just one more reason for chucking up low percentage contested step back threes as the clock expires. Plus our opponents scoring in the lane and killing us on the boards. Coach is doing his best to.make sure this changes in the near future it would appear. What I wouldnt give fir an "old school" 5 like Loyola found in thier freshman center last season or have Ebo or someone develop that skill set.

 

[SescIllini]

Evaluating isnt where Groce failed. He was often among the first on a player. When he didnt get plan A or B he didnt have a good plan C ot D.
When BU the staff are out there recruiting it i's clear there is a difference in how he spreads his staff around looking at lot more globally. He certainly isn't concerned with others rankings.

There is a saying "it is you and me, until it is you or me". Groce's coaches failed him tremendously at all facets except Walker. But Walker is looking like our weakest recruiter, but might be the best technical coach. When things started going bad Groce took over many functions the asst. Coaches had. He needed new faces going into year 2 or 3 and never changed. That is his biggest failing
Imho.

 

[RIVERCITYCHIEF]

There is a saying "it is you and me, until it is you or me". Groce's coaches failed him tremendously at all facets except Walker. But Walker is looking like our weakest recruiter, but might be the best technical coach. When things started going bad Groce took over many functions the asst. Coaches had. He needed new faces going into year 2 or 3 and never changed. That is his biggest failing
Imho.

I agree that being an issue.Plus he had some awful luck with injures and how he dealt with off the court stuff. Losing Nunn may be the biggest reason he is gone. BU is a hard nosed coach that some players may not like. I like BU's hardnosed approach. I also feel BU approach could help attract tougher, hard nosed players in recruiting that Groce was always talking about. Some were and some were not under JG. I think either you will be a tough recruit and player under BU or you wont sniff the court. I like that a lot. Players like Kipper and others will become better players and likely deal with issues after basketball more effectively. It can teach young men a lot imho. If my son were being recruited I'd prefer he played for a coach like BU that can reinforce some life principles I've tried to lay for my son.

 

[Obelix]

I'm not sure why you quoted that post since your response doesn't really address anything River said.

Rivercitychief is the one who made the original post that I had responded to that says, and I quote: "Coaches that make millions of dollars better at evaluating talent than some 247 guy." His follow-up post brings up Groce as an example of that, I assume in support of the original statement.

Clearly, per my post, that statement and quote is incorrect, but also the following example. There is zero evidence that Groce was better at evaluating talent than the people (it is not a single person either) who publish those rankings. Groce went after many of the players ranked high in those rankings, just could not land them.