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Well, Meyers Leonard isn't crying on the bench yet. So, in a very real sense, "yes."Can it really get much worse than it’s been the last 3 weeks?
Well, Meyers Leonard isn't crying on the bench yet. So, in a very real sense, "yes."Can it really get much worse than it’s been the last 3 weeks?
If he’s lost the team. Absolutely.Can it really get much worse than it’s been the last 3 weeks?
With fans like ours, who needs enemies?Our fans are something else.
I don't assume the players are doing what the coach is "instructing ". But you seem to assume that as long as he's instructing the right things all is fine. Great teachers and coaches know how to instruct in a way that maximizes performance. I doubt there's a single person who has not had a professor who knew his subject matter very well but couldn't explain it well to others.I think this is a really good post. I agree with over 95 % of it. I only have couple of caveats.
I.) It certainly does cut both ways…and I also, don’t know why so many fans assume that what players are doing in real time is exactly what the coach is instructing. Clue phone …players don’t do what the coach intended for a number of reasons…(teenagers, and twenty-something’s tend to be kinda flaky sometimes…I know I could be.)
I don’t wanna sound like a jerk…but
Anybody who thinks that is the way it is has never been a coach or a teacher.
Sure. It was just a flippant response to “it’s likely to get worse before it gets better.” If he loses the team, it’s not going to get better. I don’t think that will happen, but if it does……I might take a long vacation from the message boards.If he’s lost the team. Absolutely.
That whole sequence of events has forever scarred us as Illini fans. Mike Thomas and his storm of destruction will live forever in my nightmares.Well, Meyers Leonard isn't crying on the bench yet. So, in a very real sense, "yes."
No, I agree with that. I really think withI don't assume the players are doing what the coach is "instructing ". But you seem to assume that as long as he's instructing the right things all is fine. Great teachers and coaches know how to instruct in a way that maximizes performance. I doubt there's a single person who has not had a professor who knew his subject matter very well but couldn't explain it well to others.
This was my beef with Weber . He'd say "I told him to....." as if the mere act of him telling a player what to do is the equivalent of coaching.
Much to BU's credit he doesn't appear to adopt this excuse in the least despite some on this board doing it.
If this is aimed at all the time I've wasted complaining about stuff on here, I don't think that's been my point. I don't think you can take any issue with saying that Underwood is accountable for the final product on the court, and that extends to finding the right guys, making sure those guys are motivated and play hard and together, and generally getting the gameplan executed. The thing that's getting me is when folks keep acting like there's some tweak to his gameplan that can be made in order to offset motivation and execution issues, because there isn't.I don't assume the players are doing what the coach is "instructing ". But you seem to assume that as long as he's instructing the right things all is fine. Great teachers and coaches know how to instruct in a way that maximizes performance. I doubt there's a single person who has not had a professor who knew his subject matter very well but couldn't explain it well to others.
This was my beef with Weber . He'd say "I told him to....." as if the mere act of him telling a player what to do is the equivalent of coaching.
Much to BU's credit he doesn't appear to adopt this excuse in the least despite some on this board doing it.
If I knew how to solve team chemistry and individual motivation problems, I'd be somewhere making a lot of money to do it. I'm not sure how good anyone is at dealing with that stuff, to be honest with you. As you move up the chain from high school/AAU to college to pro those problems tend to solve themselves, because there's only so far you can go if you don't put in the work. So I'm not confident at all that they'll work it out, but regardless I think it's a lot easier to teach a kid how to watch film or learn an offense than it is to teach him how to be 6'7" with a 7' wingspan.I think this is a really good post. I agree with over 95 % of it. I only have couple of caveats.
I.) It certainly does cut both ways…and I also, don’t know why so many fans assume that what players are doing in real time is exactly what the coach is instructing. Clue phone …players don’t do what the coach intended for a number of reasons…(teenagers, and twenty-something’s tend to be kinda flaky sometimes…I know I could be.)
I don’t wanna sound like a jerk…but
Anybody who thinks that is the way it is has never been a coach or a teacher.
Obviously, BU has a solid resume. His list of achievements speaks for itself. He’s a knowledgeable X’s O’s guy and he didn’t lose that ability over night. He has a solid track record of developing players, despite what some on here say. He generally handles the media well, he appears quite good at: hiring, recruiting, delegating and building a winning culture. But there has invariably been some missteps, bad luck
and failed experiments. But that is part of the job and is to be expected. The whole
thing is a crap-shoot to a certain point.
However, if there is a violent storm in the midst of a mutiny on this ship it falls to the captain to right it…I’m not saying anything controversial there at all. It’s just the way it is.
ex. the staff AND some of us thought…Skyy Clark was gonna be Damon Stoudamire reincarnated. That hasn’t panned out just yet. In Sky’s defense, do we remember Ayo’s freshman campaign? I seem to remember him being weak at finishing around the rim/getting the ball lodged under the backboard quite frequently with no where to go…I don’t
recall him being a perfect defender early on either. Ayo had more time to develop clearly. Skyy is asked to perform like a seasoned veteran from day one.
2.) We have more fixable problems than last year..I would like to believe that these problems are more fixable than last year’s more logistical based problems. I would argue these types of emotional/bad blood/personality-clash/unchecked ego type problems might be even harder to solve or get a handle on. They’re sometimes really bad. I know how gloomy all this this sounds but I think it’s gonna get worse before it gets better.
I think people need to realize, we only have 2 guys that played on the team last year, 3 when Goode gets back. So what that means, is many of these guys don't know the system yet. It's certainly not natural to them. Of those returning players the oldest is a Jr. He's also never really been the man anywhere he's played, so he's not experienced leading.If I knew how to solve team chemistry and individual motivation problems, I'd be somewhere making a lot of money to do it. I'm not sure how good anyone is at dealing with that stuff, to be honest with you. As you move up the chain from high school/AAU to college to pro those problems tend to solve themselves, because there's only so far you can go if you don't put in the work. So I'm not confident at all that they'll work it out, but regardless I think it's a lot easier to teach a kid how to watch film or learn an offense than it is to teach him how to be 6'7" with a 7' wingspan.
Underwood is not perfect, and he's certainly getting some stuff wrong this year. But that doesn't relieve the players of accountability, either. I think it's fine to give them a share of the blame if they're just not doing their jobs.
Well sure, anybody who coaches long enough is gonna have some teams that they struggle to motivate or get that initialIf I knew how to solve team chemistry and individual motivation problems, I'd be somewhere making a lot of money to do it. I'm not sure how good anyone is at dealing with that stuff, to be honest with you. As you move up the chain from high school/AAU to college to pro those problems tend to solve themselves, because there's only so far you can go if you don't put in the work. So I'm not confident at all that they'll work it out, but regardless I think it's a lot easier to teach a kid how to watch film or learn an offense than it is to teach him how to be 6'7" with a 7' wingspan.
Underwood is not perfect, and he's certainly getting some stuff wrong this year. But that doesn't relieve the players of accountability, either. I think it's fine to give them a share of the blame if they're just not doing their jobs.
This was an all time low. I think I even shed a tear watching his anguish. It broke the heart.Well, Meyers Leonard isn't crying on the bench yet. So, in a very real sense, "yes."
I respectfully disagree with this. If his style isn’t your cup of tea I can appreciate that.Most use the comparison with a boss, and I understand why.
But if you saw a respected member of the community, screaming, pointing, and cursing in someone's face like BU does in nearly ANY other scenario (restaurant, sidewalk, church, even Walmart), someone would call the cops.
Then, an onlooker next to you says... "Don't dial the police, he's trying to motivate. It's tough love. He's trying to reach them. He asked his grown son to do something and his son attempted, but he did it wrong. It's a teaching moment."
Forget era, forget coaching style, forget "toughness". Try dignity. Try true leadership. Especially in front of 15,000 onlookers. I thought the "Pizza Hut parking lot" was for the other team.
Send them all to pruman's for a retreat to get their minds right
You can do what you want. Personally, I am not going to pull out my hair and wail like a Greek widow because the team is going through a rough patch.Ups and downs eh? Losing all 3 of the first Big 10 games and getting spanked by Northwestern of all places? It's been all down since Texas.
If any one of these guys is surprised, they would have to be pretty low wattage.Lol. Underwood is the best coach we've had in 15 years and one of the best coaches in the country. Yes, he recruited these players, but you left out that they chose to play for him fully knowing how he coaches.
I don’t know if this is a response to me saying he looks like a fool, but if so you’re misreading my comment. I said nothing about whether he was a good coach. I only said that there are lots of ways to motivate and him stomping and screaming on the sideline like he’s a breath away from a heart attack is terrible for the program’s optics. Hence, we have seen a lot of social media commentary on his antics rather than his ability as a coach. It’s distracting at best and it’s also NOT WORKING.
Context and proximity do matter, the problem with the two situations you described is that he's also going nuclear an inch away from the player's faces and a second later the assistant coaches are talking to the players normally so it sure doesn't look like it was necessary to scream like a banshee to be heardI respectfully disagree with this. If his style isn’t your cup of tea I can appreciate that.
I can see how some would not want their
kids to be subjected to that. That’s fair.
However, there are some key differences between coaching DI hoops and the scenarios you describe:
-Those 15,000 onlookers in a massive basketball arena tend to get kinda loud. Is the screaming guy at Wal-Mart or the yelling woman in the back pew having to shout over 15k people just to be heard? Or are they just some lunatic that should be escorted away by the police; just as you suggest. Context matters; so does proximity.
-The other human humans he’s trying to communicate with are a bit distracted…and
they keep continually running away from him in the opposite direction as much as
55? 65? 75 feet away? I know that sounds
snarky as hell, but it’s true. There is an immediacy to a basketball game that you likely do not have with these other scenarios. Those teachable moments generally occur in very short bursts of time. He might not have time to go through a big long preamble about this or that. The stuff is happening out there in real time. He needs to get their attention quickly.
-Some players, but obviously not all folks are as put off by volume or even curse words as others are. I don’t feel like simple volume automatically equates to being berated either. As strange as it my seem, some of these players actually wanna be coached up like that. Some actually go to that particular coach/school for that reason.
Kofi was supposedly pissed when he wasn’t yelling at him.
I DO however, agree it might be nice if he recognized a little sooner when it was working and when it wasn’t because I think it would make him more effective overall as communicator.
* There are some out there who automatically put any fiery, intense coach that yells, in the Bobby Knight category…
and that’s just unfair and complete garbage. If it ever became toxic like that crap I’d more than be with ya
Something tells me fans may raise eyebrows at the next batch of players we pull from the portal. They won't be as shiny as TSJ and MM, but check other critical boxes fans tend to overlook.Underwood very noticeably chilled out starting after the Covid lockdown.
And I might be over-reading this, but I always kinda felt in the years before that there was a calculated element of performance in BU's blow-ups, that he was doing it as a show for the players to provoke a certain reaction. There's an element of genuine exasperation in it all now, never more so than last night.
I don't like it, I wouldn't play for a coach like that, but his ability to bring great performances out of players and teams speaks for itself, we're very lucky to have him and so long as we can keep him I have every confidence that he can learn from what's happened this year and build a new winning group going forward.
I pretty much agree with this response. Our freshmen are playing like virtually all the freshmen the Illini have had over the years. Playing a freshman with 4 experienced starters works much better. It is what it is and will take time to fix.I think people need to realize, we only have 2 guys that played on the team last year, 3 when Goode gets back. So what that means, is many of these guys don't know the system yet. It's certainly not natural to them. Of those returning players the oldest is a Jr. He's also never really been the man anywhere he's played, so he's not experienced leading.
Then when you factor in, you usually look to your best player (Shannon, who is new to the program) or PG (Skyy, new to the program) as your leader that makes it even more a challenge. Our next choice would be the guy who's been around the program the longest, Coleman. He's leading the team in turnovers and one of our worst shooters percentage wise. Is that a guy the rest of the team will follow just because of age? So who does the team listen to? Who gets the team back on track? Anyone?
I think that is our problem. When things go wrong, who knows what to do and what to say to fix it? Who demands the respect of the rest of the team to get them to act? Who is leading by example to show everyone how to play?
I think we are seeing just how important leadership is to a team. This team has more than enough talent to beat anyone in the nation, we've seen it. But they have no coach on the floor and it is killing us.
This where I have a quibble with what many are saying to explain our lack of offenseI pretty much agree with this response. Our freshmen are playing like virtually all the freshmen the Illini have had over the years. Playing a freshman with 4 experienced starters works much better. It is what it is and will take time to fix.