Illinois 88, Ohio State 80 Postgame

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#401      
hoopsfan47
Second place is 1st loser said:
Pretty sure that DB's comment came soon after the euphoria after a great win. No, he's not a lottery pick. Given his lack of physical development, he'd still be a massive project at the NBA level. At 6'6", when he starts getting up, stuffing the ball and showing some true explosiveness vs the unbelievable craftiness and maturity that he has at a young age.... he'll be ready. His arms are like twigs and he looks like a freshman. That's why we have a great strength and conditioning program. He needs that badly.

You made a great point. Let's wait until March and see how he held up physically. The dog days of playing in the Big Ten, which is late January thru February, will give us a good pulse. We're not even halfway through December.

One last add. This draft is LOADED. They sat that if Flagg came out this year and not last....he might have been the 6th pick, not the 1st.

Long way to go.
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Having seen some terrific players over the past 70 years as an Illini/college hoops fan, I cannot imagine Cooper Flagg EVER gong lower than a 3 pick in the draft. He just has too many elite skills.
 
#404      
NarrowJ
Bigtex said:
my concern with Mirk getting sped up is turnovers.
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I agree he can work on it yet, but he hasn't been that bad in that area, honestly

Out of our rotation players he has the 2nd highest usage rate (24.3%) and has 19 turnovers in 10 games

So not terrible, but he can be better for sure

Sidebar: Illinois as a team is only averaging 9.7 turnovers per game, which out of the current top 15 teams in the nation, is 2nd only to UConn's 9.4 per game
 
#405      
Scoregasm
NarrowJ said:
I agree he can work on it yet, but he hasn't been that bad in that area, honestly

Out of our rotation players he has the 2nd highest usage rate (24.3%) and has 19 turnovers in 10 games

So not terrible, but he can be better for sure

Sidebar: Illinois as a team is only averaging 9.7 turnovers per game, which out of the current top 15 teams in the nation, is 2nd only to UConn's 9.4 per game
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I'm very much liking the lack of turnovers this year after last year. Much more enjoyable to watch.
 
#406      
OrangeBlue98
NarrowJ said:
I agree he can work on it yet, but he hasn't been that bad in that area, honestly

Out of our rotation players he has the 2nd highest usage rate (24.3%) and has 19 turnovers in 10 games

So not terrible, but he can be better for sure

Sidebar: Illinois as a team is only averaging 9.7 turnovers per game, which out of the current top 15 teams in the nation, is 2nd only to UConn's 9.4 per game
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The turnover number is impressive, particularly given the speed of play Illinois prefers. I would not be surprised to see Illinois above UConn on that list if we were comparing turnovers per possession or per 100 possessions.
 
#408      
grue2
NarrowJ said:
I agree he can work on it yet, but he hasn't been that bad in that area, honestly

Out of our rotation players he has the 2nd highest usage rate (24.3%) and has 19 turnovers in 10 games

So not terrible, but he can be better for sure

Sidebar: Illinois as a team is only averaging 9.7 turnovers per game, which out of the current top 15 teams in the nation, is 2nd only to UConn's 9.4 per game
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I'm not sure how they are counting turnovers. The last game listed him as having two, I counted at least 3 in the first 26 minutes.

From my prior note:
- First half: Three times he dribbled himself into trouble, losing the ball twice and nearly lost it the third time (it happened to bounce out to a teammate).
- Early second half: He made a nice rebound and dribbled up the court on the run, out of control, to then threw the ball away on a terrible pass out of bounds.
[3 turnovers]

Additional things that were just as bad as turnovers:
- His first drive in the second half started with a blatant push off. He got lucky and the ref called it the wrong way. (should be turnover)
- Out of control dribble throwing it at the hoop; still early 2nd half. (a turnover in all but technical terms)
- A play where he held the ball in his palm, way away from his body for several seconds while staring at where he is is going to make the one armed pass. A half awake defender on crutches could have jumped that passing lane. (OSU wasn't awake. It should have been a turnover.)

IMO, that is way past "not that bad". Value the ball. Stay within your skill set.
 
#409      
NarrowJ
grue2 said:
I'm not sure how they are counting turnovers. The last game listed him as having two, I counted at least 3 in the first 26 minutes.

From my prior note:
- First half: Three times he dribbled himself into trouble, losing the ball twice and nearly lost it the third time (it happened to bounce out to a teammate).
- Early second half: He made a nice rebound and dribbled up the court on the run, out of control, to then threw the ball away on a terrible pass out of bounds.
[3 turnovers]

Additional things that were just as bad as turnovers:
- His first drive in the second half started with a blatant push off. He got lucky and the ref called it the wrong way. (should be turnover)
- Out of control dribble throwing it at the hoop; still early 2nd half. (a turnover in all but technical terms)
- A play where he held the ball in his palm, way away from his body for several seconds while staring at where he is is going to make the one armed pass. A half awake defender on crutches could have jumped that passing lane. (OSU wasn't awake. It should have been a turnover.)

IMO, that is way past "not that bad". Value the ball. Stay within your skill set.
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The scorekeeping isn’t wrong lol you just must not understand how they’re accredited.

Scorekeeping is heavily scrutinized and they review the entire thing post game and make corrections. It’s why people complain about bad beats with stat corrections in the sports betting community.

There is no mass conspiracy to reduce David Mirkovic’s turnover rate, but thanks for the laugh 😂

Edit: Hannes Steinbach, for instance, has a lower usage rate and averages slightly more turnovers.. just one example
 
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#410      
grue2
NarrowJ said:
The scorekeeping isn’t wrong lol you just must not understand how they’re accredited.
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I openly acknowledge I don't know the formal rules. I only look at the results. On a fast break, when the passer, near midcourt, throws a pass toward a person running to the corner, and the ball goes out of bounds due ~3' too much lead on the pass, who, if anyone gets credited for that turnover?
 
#411      
Second place is 1st loser
hoopsfan47 said:
Having seen some terrific players over the past 70 years as an Illini/college hoops fan, I cannot imagine Cooper Flagg EVER gong lower than a 3 pick in the draft. He just has too many elite skills.
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He's phenomenal, but if you had to pick between a guy like Dybansta, Peterson, Boozer, etc...and project, it's a tough projection.

The basis of the point is that with the depth of prospects in this years draft class, Wagler will never sniff the lottery given his need for development in all aspects, whether that be physically, athletically(explosiveness) and just refining his game....a ton. I'm not sure I've seen him throw one down yet this year and it's only December. Can he get through the grind?

Will(Riley) had some similar issues, but was a unicorn from a size/skill perspective, he was extremely athletic and his best basketball was the 2nd half of the season.

There is more of the 2026 class that can step in and give minutes right away than the 2025 class.
 
#412      
NarrowJ
grue2 said:
I openly acknowledge I don't know the formal rules. I only look at the results. On a fast break, when the passer, near midcourt, throws a pass toward a person running to the corner, and the ball goes out of bounds due ~3' too much lead on the pass, who, if anyone gets credited for that turnover?
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Mirkovic's two turnovers occurred at the 8:15 mark in 1H and at the 15:19 mark in 2H.

First one, he slipped and fell down..

Second one, unsure if its the one you're talking about, but it sounds similar... in transition, he throws a pass to KB who is in the corner, KB got both hands on the ball and drops it out of bounds.. now, it wasn't the most on-target pass ever but it was certainly catchable.

Here's the clip:

So as to how the accreditation works: a missed catch on a pass results in a turnover charged to the passer no matter whether the receiver touches it or not, so the player who passes the ball is charged with a turnover even if it was the receiver at fault.

EDIT: I'm unsure why the rule/accredition works this way, but that's how it is scored. If I had to guess I'd say they just charge it to the passer so as there is a hard and fast rule as to how to score it and you're not relying on a judgment call in every scenario.
 
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#413      
grue2
NarrowJ said:
Mirkovic's two turnovers occurred at the 8:15 mark in 1H and at the 15:19 mark in 2H.

First one, he slipped and fell down..

Second one, unsure if its the one you're talking about, but it sounds similar... in transition, he throws a pass to KB who is in the corner, KB got both hands on the ball and drops it out of bounds.. now, it wasn't the most on-target pass ever but it was certainly catchable.

Here's the clip:

So as to how the accreditation works: a missed catch on a pass results in a turnover charged to the passer no matter whether the receiver touches it or not, so the player who passes the ball is charged with a turnover even if it was the receiver at fault.

EDIT: I'm unsure why the rule/accredition works this way, but that's how it is scored. If I had to guess I'd say they just charge it to the passer so as there is a hard and fast rule as to how to score it and you're not relying on a judgment call in every scenario.
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Thanks for the explanation. That is the pass play to which I was referring. (~6:19 into the vid, the timestamp didn't work for me)
 
#414      
21ChampaignSt
NarrowJ said:
Mirkovic's two turnovers occurred at the 8:15 mark in 1H and at the 15:19 mark in 2H.

First one, he slipped and fell down..

Second one, unsure if its the one you're talking about, but it sounds similar... in transition, he throws a pass to KB who is in the corner, KB got both hands on the ball and drops it out of bounds.. now, it wasn't the most on-target pass ever but it was certainly catchable.

Here's the clip:

So as to how the accreditation works: a missed catch on a pass results in a turnover charged to the passer no matter whether the receiver touches it or not, so the player who passes the ball is charged with a turnover even if it was the receiver at fault.

EDIT: I'm unsure why the rule/accredition works this way, but that's how it is scored. If I had to guess I'd say they just charge it to the passer so as there is a hard and fast rule as to how to score it and you're not relying on a judgment call in every scenario.
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I believe the TO always gets charged to the last player to have possession.
 
#415      
NarrowJ
21ChampaignSt said:
I believe the TO always gets charged to the last player to have possession.
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I think you are spot on with this correction, so there is a bit of a judgment call: if the receiver completes the catch (ie, has possession as you say) and then fumbles it, they get charged with a turnover.

Does that sound right?
 
#416      
21ChampaignSt
NarrowJ said:
I think you are spot on with this correction, so there is a bit of a judgment call: if the receiver completes the catch (ie, has possession as you say) and then fumbles it, they get charged with a turnover.

Does that sound right?
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I think so as long as they get one foot down with control of the ball first.

Let's bring in our rules analyst, Mike Pereira.

looking fox sports GIF by Tide


Thanks, Mike.

Back to you, NarrowJ.
 
#417      
OrangeBlue98
One knee equals two feet . . .

Wait, wrong sport, and the guy who said that (and wrote a book with that title) is sadly no longer with us.
 
#419      
pweo
Rap47 said:
Who is they, Flagg would have been the first pick in about every draft including this year.
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fun debate - he wasnt the clear top prospect in the '25 class before he reclassed. glad he did though - him + the boozers would be gross
 
#420      
chudaman
Second place is 1st loser said:
He's phenomenal, but if you had to pick between a guy like Dybansta, Peterson, Boozer, etc...and project, it's a tough projection.

The basis of the point is that with the depth of prospects in this years draft class, Wagler will never sniff the lottery given his need for development in all aspects, whether that be physically, athletically(explosiveness) and just refining his game....a ton. I'm not sure I've seen him throw one down yet this year and it's only December. Can he get through the grind?

Will(Riley) had some similar issues, but was a unicorn from a size/skill perspective, he was extremely athletic and his best basketball was the 2nd half of the season.

There is more of the 2026 class that can step in and give minutes right away than the 2025 class.
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Torvik stats list zero dunks for Keats so far.
 
#423      
pruman91
home @ 4:30 pm....
1st smoke @ 4:45 pm......
1st toke @ 4:55 pm.................

 
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