Fair point.
My family moved to Champaign-Urbana in 2001. I had a choice to pick a fandom. And my 11-yo brain just liked the color blue.
Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread
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Fair point.
My family moved to Champaign-Urbana in 2001. I had a choice to pick a fandom. And my 11-yo brain just liked the color blue.
I disagree he's fortunate he hasn't gotten kicked out of more games than he has. Karma is eventually going to catch up with him unless he mellows out some.
Could be a directly inverse relationship to how well BC does.
I've seen Hurley talk XO's with Reddick, guy sounded like he was speaking another language. He's not short on hoops acumen.
This is when dynasty type teams start falling apart, when coaches start losing their staff.
My question would be, if Murray crushes it at BC, does UConn find a way to expedite handing the baton to him so they don't lose him to some other program? If he does wonders there in 3-4 years, he'll have any job he wants after that and there are some big programs who could be on the market (UK, UM, KU).
The Cardinals were founded on the South side of Chicago (The Racine Street Cardinals) and charter members of the NFL.. Old timers like myself saw them play in Chicago when they had the best team in the NFL, when they were champions in 1947 (with the dream backfield of Chrisman, Trippi, Angsman and Harder) so stastically, since they have never won the NFL since, they have been the worst team ever to play in the NFL. So please excuse Chicago oldtimers who are still fans. Thay are few and far between, but alas, I am one of them!
That is not the team that Det_Illini_Fan is talking about. He said that the cardinals have had a lot of success since 2005.
Also you really are old. Congratulations!
Interesting sidebar here (recruiting thread for the win):
The phenomenon of the overvalued college basketball coach is one of the most predictable cycles in sports, driven by the intense single-elimination hysteria of the tournament. I feel the core of this overvaluation (or undervaluation in inverse cases, whichever way you choose to look at this) lies in a fundamental misunderstanding of variance and sample size, as well as a coach's environment contributing to their success.
Some of the sample size stuff gets discussed into very delusionary territory, where people so strongly believe coaches are responsible for outcomes of single games and even single plays (argument a couple weeks ago on here was made that Dan Hurley directly caused Cayden Boozer to throw the ball away because of his amazing press scheme). He may draw up good plays, but there's a reason teams only win <1% of the time in that scenario. There isn't a play you can draw up on defense that results in a steal 100% of the time, else Hurley would run only that play and no others. Saying the coach's defensive acumen has an effect on what happens on the court is one thing; believing he's solely responsible for that win because that sequence played out exactly as he planned it is absolute lunacy, though.
People tend to bind their thinking directly to results, but what are the results bound to - the coach, players? Its a combination of both things. Hurley has a 24-11 season sandwiched in between the b2b championships and this F4 team. His record at UConn prior to that was pretty poor also. Will Hurley become a Coach K or a Billy Donovan? I'm not sure. You can be a really, really excellent college basketball coach (Few, Keady, Huggins, Driesell, Sampson, Barnes) and still not win a NC and you can also be a ho-hum college basketball coach and win a title (Massimino, Harrick, Ollie, Steve Fisher, etc).
Hurley landing at UConn versus, lets say, Boston College more than likely matters a lot as far as his trajectory as a coach. Thinking Boston College here, and Luke Murray: people go on and on about Murray's offenses at UConn:
2022: 22nd
2023: 3rd
2024: 1st
2025: 15th
2026: 29th
Did he just have a run of good offensive players in a 2 year stretch or is he really the greatest offensive mind in college basketball? The conductor waves the baton and sets the tempo, but the violinists and cellists physically play the notes. If they don't, there's no music.
Hurley is obviously a really great coach who clearly doesn't belong in the Massimino, Harrick, Ollie, Fisher bucket. But, how much of it is him being an actual wizard/miracle worker/best coach ever/etcetera, and how much of it is him simply flourishing by maximizing UConn's elite blueprint? Ollie struggled once the structural momentum of the program faded, I don't see that happening with Hurley at all.
The phenomenon of the overvalued college basketball coach is one of the most predictable cycles in sports, driven by the intense single-elimination hysteria of the tournament. I feel the core of this overvaluation (or undervaluation in inverse cases, whichever way you choose to look at this) lies in a fundamental misunderstanding of variance and sample size, as well as a coach's environment contributing to their success.
Some of the sample size stuff gets discussed into very delusionary territory, where people so strongly believe coaches are responsible for outcomes of single games and even single plays (argument a couple weeks ago on here was made that Dan Hurley directly caused Cayden Boozer to throw the ball away because of his amazing press scheme). He may draw up good plays, but there's a reason teams only win <1% of the time in that scenario. There isn't a play you can draw up on defense that results in a steal 100% of the time, else Hurley would run only that play and no others. Saying the coach's defensive acumen has an effect on what happens on the court is one thing; believing he's solely responsible for that win because that sequence played out exactly as he planned it is absolute lunacy, though.
People tend to bind their thinking directly to results, but what are the results bound to - the coach, players? Its a combination of both things. Hurley has a 24-11 season sandwiched in between the b2b championships and this F4 team. His record at UConn prior to that was pretty poor also. Will Hurley become a Coach K or a Billy Donovan? I'm not sure. You can be a really, really excellent college basketball coach (Few, Keady, Huggins, Driesell, Sampson, Barnes) and still not win a NC and you can also be a ho-hum college basketball coach and win a title (Massimino, Harrick, Ollie, Steve Fisher, etc).
Hurley landing at UConn versus, lets say, Boston College more than likely matters a lot as far as his trajectory as a coach. Thinking Boston College here, and Luke Murray: people go on and on about Murray's offenses at UConn:
2022: 22nd
2023: 3rd
2024: 1st
2025: 15th
2026: 29th
Did he just have a run of good offensive players in a 2 year stretch or is he really the greatest offensive mind in college basketball? The conductor waves the baton and sets the tempo, but the violinists and cellists physically play the notes. If they don't, there's no music.
Hurley is obviously a really great coach who clearly doesn't belong in the Massimino, Harrick, Ollie, Fisher bucket. But, how much of it is him being an actual wizard/miracle worker/best coach ever/etcetera, and how much of it is him simply flourishing by maximizing UConn's elite blueprint? Ollie struggled once the structural momentum of the program faded, I don't see that happening with Hurley at all.
aiwpfan
- Springfield, Il
I had an uncle who played on that team ('46/'47). He was also captain of the 1943 Great Lakes team that beat Notre Dame, and went on to be the HC at Illinois Wesleyan after his short pro career.
His record against the spread in tournament games (18-1 I believe, and if anything it appears that dumb money was betting on him recently, not against) is beyond discounting due to sample size. I'm curious whether there's anything in his approach that sacrifices regular season performance- either intended (i.e. for the purpose of being better in the tournament) or not.
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I agree that his ATS run crushes a standard threshold. It proves the betting market has continuously undervalued Hurley's teams, though my opinion that coaching is overvalued in college basketball remains unchanged by this single example. Hurley is one data point.
EDIT: My comment on sample size was directed at overreactions to single games (and single possessions!!) rather than a 4-5 year stretch of tournament games -->
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I assume you mean "coaching is overvalued" here in the sense of whether teams over/underperform in the tournament relative to pre-tournament expectations?
Otherwise, based on what you've said before I have to think you agree that a coach is extremely important to a program overall- recruiting, identifying talent/fit, developing players, designing schemes, etc.
I see your edit now. Yeah, I'm not hung up on a single play or game, and I didn't think the recent discussion was either.
Was hoping the gist of my post was:
1. Coaching is overvalued in college basketball
2. Dan Hurley is probably not a good example of that
Sample size was a tangent that perhaps didn't belong and muddied what I wanted to convey. Good call to point that out.
i've tried to make this argument with our downstate brothers, but with no luck.
Grew up in Champaign. Don’t even try to have this convo with Cards fans. I never full understood it. But it feels like it’s passed down thru generations.
Hereforit
- Littleton, CO
Fun story for the crazies on this board. Nemanja Jokic - the middle brother, Nikola is the baby bro - is a friend of mine (we workout at the same gym here in south Denver) and I was congratulating and joking with him about getting his agent license this summer, which he did, and how he needs to start funneling even more elite Euros towards Illinois. He laughed of course as we have discussed the whole Misko/Illinois connection in times past, and as you might imagine he knows Misko quite well. But as we talked about his new path he mentioned he will focus more on the college guys. He got his license as an agent for the NBA but I believe there’s another one for the NCAA that he’ll have to get next, but think that NBA license needed to be attained first if I’m not mistaken.
Nemanja hears all about the Illini-Balkan stories from me, which he honestly already knows a fair amount about, but I show him the Mirk videos that are posted on this board which always produces copious amounts of hilarity for us both. Anyways, great dude. One I will be continually talking about Illinois with as well.
Nemanja hears all about the Illini-Balkan stories from me, which he honestly already knows a fair amount about, but I show him the Mirk videos that are posted on this board which always produces copious amounts of hilarity for us both. Anyways, great dude. One I will be continually talking about Illinois with as well.
Yeah, definitely animpulse control problem appears to be the biggest commonality between the two…IMO.
Seems like Knight had a more of persecution complex than Hurley…very seething and volatile. Seemed to have more of a problem with humanity itself.
Whereas Hurley is more of a breathtakingly arrogant, self-aggrandizing…near megalomaniacal pr*ck.
Both kinda batsh*t.
Life long Cardinal fan in Forgottonia. Growing up we went to St Louis not Chicago. Spent 50 plus years telling people I was no where near Chicago. Having grown up rural I explained to friends from small Iowa towns that my home had more in common with them than Chicago. I have no loyalty to Chicago what so ever. I have long thought of Illinois as two states. Everything from Chicago central and 50 mile out(Joliet and Aurora}. And then there is the rest of the state.
ptgrd23
- orange county CA
Hurley is on an incredible run. I think he is an incredible recruiter, team builder and gets his player to play disciplined.
2 championships and 1 runner up in 8 years. He would get my vote for best current college coach. He is thriving in the $NIL and transfer portal. I hate his facial expressions. I hate that he humiliated us along with everybody else in 2024. Couple bounces and we beat UConn in 2026.
Bobby K was a brilliant coach who stayed too long. He spoke at a corporate meeting I was at. Our CEO threw a chair at him. Bobby called him a fairy because his first name was Charles. Bobby had 3 championships in his first 16 years. His next 13 years 1 FF 2 elite 8.
Billy Donovan coached at Florida for 18 years 1996-2015. He had 2 championships, 1 runner up 1 FF 3 elite 8, and 7 other appearances. He left UF after a FF. He was on roll but wanted to try NBA. Dustin May left after his first Naty. Should be interesting to see his career. Billy has been mediocre as Bulls coach.
Coach K was at Duke 41 years 5 championships, 3 runner up, 4 FF
2 championships and 1 runner up in 8 years. He would get my vote for best current college coach. He is thriving in the $NIL and transfer portal. I hate his facial expressions. I hate that he humiliated us along with everybody else in 2024. Couple bounces and we beat UConn in 2026.
Bobby K was a brilliant coach who stayed too long. He spoke at a corporate meeting I was at. Our CEO threw a chair at him. Bobby called him a fairy because his first name was Charles. Bobby had 3 championships in his first 16 years. His next 13 years 1 FF 2 elite 8.
Billy Donovan coached at Florida for 18 years 1996-2015. He had 2 championships, 1 runner up 1 FF 3 elite 8, and 7 other appearances. He left UF after a FF. He was on roll but wanted to try NBA. Dustin May left after his first Naty. Should be interesting to see his career. Billy has been mediocre as Bulls coach.
Coach K was at Duke 41 years 5 championships, 3 runner up, 4 FF
Media tends to sensationalize the trope.Patrick Yeah, definitely animpulse control problem appears to be the biggest commonality between the two…IMO.
Seems like Knight had a more of persecution complex than Hurley…very seething and volatile. Seemed to have more of a problem with humanity itself.
Whereas Hurley is more of a breathtakingly arrogant, self-aggrandizing…near megalomaniacal pr*ck.
Both kinda batsh*t.
Knight was a psychopath. He couldn't have coached today with cell phones. He would have been in prison. Not exaggerating.
Agree... I don't know why I did, but I read his book and it gave me a bit of a bias towards him.... I don't like him, but can absolutely respect his ability to win and to build probably the best team culture in CBB. He can for sure be an a**hole but it also seems like the media really juices it when he does have a blowout.Media tends to sensationalize the trope.
I think the whining that we get from a lot of the prominent coaches in CBB (about players, the environment, etc.) is harder to stomach for me than Hurley's antics.
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