1/31 Polls & Bracketology - Illinois #18 in AP Poll

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#51      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
21ChampaignSt said:
I consider myself an actual basketball fan and I'm taking a Final Four over a conference championship every time. It's really not close for me.

And I'm ashamed of the things I would do for a Natty..
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I would take a Final Four over a conference championship too. But there's a lot of randomness involved with getting to a FF - just consider last season. Would you trade the conference championship for Elite Eight? Sweet Sixteen?

Non-tourney accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at. Last season was great. That team was fun and memorable. And by winning the BTT we got to raise a banner despite the early tourney exit. I'd have traded that banner for a FF banner, but would I trade it for the Sweet 16? Probably not.
 
#52      

SampsonRelpenk

SampsonRelpenk
Edwardsville, IL
SampsonRelpenk
BackThatPassUp said:
Illinois also #18 in Coaches Poll


1Gonzaga(16)17-2784-
Auburn(16)20-17841
3Purdue18-36913
4UCLA16-26474
5Arizona17-26182
6Duke17-36041
7Kentucky17-45956
8Baylor18-35844
9Houston18-2567-
10Kansas17-35115
11Wisconsin17-3478-
12Villanova16-5461-
13Michigan State16-44053
14Texas Tech16-5386-
15Providence18-23842
16Ohio State13-5296-
17UConn15-42602
18Illinois15-52563
19USC18-31994
20Tennessee14-6147-
21Texas16-51344
22Iowa State16-51292
23Xavier15-5113-
24Marquette15-7802
25LSU16-5787
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I don't know if I've ever seen a tie for #1 like that in either poll.
 
#53      

21ChampaignSt

21ChampaignSt
21ChampaignSt
the juiceman cometh said:
I would take a Final Four over a conference championship too. But there's a lot of randomness involved with getting to a FF - just consider last season. Would you trade the conference championship for Elite Eight? Sweet Sixteen?

Non-tourney accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at. Last season was great. That team was fun and memorable. And by winning the BTT we got to raise a banner despite the early tourney exit. I'd have traded that banner for a FF banner, but would I trade it for the Sweet 16? Probably not.
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Agree on all counts. National Title > Final Four > B1G Regular Season Champs > BTT Champs > Elite 8
 
#55      

BretMyBeachHouse

B
BretMyBeachHouse
21ChampaignSt said:
Agree on all counts. National Title > Final Four > B1G Regular Season Champs > BTT Champs > Elite 8
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I definitely would have traded a loss in the BTT final for a win against Loyola. I think all the buzz for playing in the second weekend is better than that BTT and likely even better than the regular season title.
 
#56      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
SampsonRelpenk said:
Agreed, save for swapping the last two. That said, with all the conference wins these last three seasons it would be a real gutter to not have gotten ONE regular season title.
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Add in we haven't won it since 2005. Also, at that time we were 3rd in regular season conference titles. Now we're 5th (OSU and Wisconsin passed us) and MSU and Michigan are right behind us. I love that we're finally competing for these titles again, and now it's time to start bringing them home.
 
#58      

Arrow 7

Arrow 7
Arrow 7
altgeld88 said:
I contend that AP polling has a strong lag effect based on recent performance of a program (over past 5-10 years). Purdue, Wisc, MSU & OSU have all been consistently successful at a Top 20 level for a decade or more (tossing out a couple grim seasons in there that Painter has had.) We haven't.

Sports journalists can only watch so much hoops and they need to submit a ballot weekly.
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And if they don't pay attention to rosters, we have some pretty bad losses as far as their concerned
 
#60      

21ChampaignSt

21ChampaignSt
21ChampaignSt
Bucktown said:
I think Elite 8 and B1G champs are a toss up with a slight edge to Elite 8.
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Now that I think about it, I had the opportunity last year to purchase tickets to either the BTT championship game or the Elite Eight (presale). And I elected to purchase the Elite Eight tickets (to 2 of the 4 games). What a terrible decision that turned out to be. So I guess I would have to agree with you.
 
#61      

grue2

G
grue2
the juiceman cometh said:
I never understand this take. Winning the Big Ten is a difficult accomplishment, and also doesn't have the random luck associated with the tournament. Teams get upset in the tourney all the time. At least if you win the conference title, that's a tangible, real accomplishment that one disappointing game in March can't undo. And more to the point, how is a conference title inconsistent with tournament success? Seeding is crucial to tournament success, and winning more games helps you get that.
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The other side is the asymmetric BIG10 scheduling. Suppose the final standings are:
Team 1: 16-4
Team 2: 15-5
Team 3: 14-6
Team 4: 14-6

Team 1 played Team2(@home), Team3(@home), and Team4(away). They were 1-2 in these games.
Team 2 played Team1(away), and split with both teams 3-4. They were 3-2, in these games.

The debate: Did team 1 earn the conference championship? If not, how much was the championship worth?

Throwing oil on the fire: How different in results is this scenario where Team #1 played the bottom feeders two extra games vs. a top team opting out of playing two top opponents? (Ethically they are very different, that isn't the question.)
 
#62      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
grue2 said:
The other side is the asymmetric BIG10 scheduling. Suppose the final standings are:
Team 1: 16-4
Team 2: 15-5
Team 3: 14-6
Team 4: 14-6

Team 1 played Team2(@home), Team3(@home), and Team4(away). They were 1-2 in these games.
Team 2 played Team1(away), and split with both teams 3-4. They were 3-2, in these games.

The debate: Did team 1 earn the conference championship? If not, how much was the championship worth?

Throwing oil on the fire: How different in results is this scenario where Team #1 played the bottom feeders two extra games vs. a top team opting out of playing two top opponents? (Ethically they are very different, that isn't the question.)
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This is why I liked it more when the conference was small enough to play everyone twice!
 
#63      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
pruman91 said:
They need to stop watching so much porn during the Poll voting part of the season then they could vote better........................................JMHO
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Judging Hasan Minhaj GIF by Patriot Act
 
#65      

danielb927

danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
danielb927
the juiceman cometh said:
I never understand this take. Winning the Big Ten is a difficult accomplishment, and also doesn't have the random luck associated with the tournament. Teams get upset in the tourney all the time. At least if you win the conference title, that's a tangible, real accomplishment that one disappointing game in March can't undo. And more to the point, how is a conference title inconsistent with tournament success? Seeding is crucial to tournament success, and winning more games helps you get that.
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Just a small point, but there is plenty of luck in a regular season as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for a Big Ten championship like crazy this year, especially a solo championship. It won't be easy. But I think the notion that the regular season doesn't involve any luck (not necessarily what you said, BTW, but definitely an attitude that's out there) is also wrong. Even 20 games is far from enough "averaging" to get rid of all the luck.

Adding to the other poster about unbalanced schedules, the WCC actually collaborated with KenPom last year to come up with an "adjusted" conference winning percentage to use for their tournament seeding in light of the many games that were cancelled.

 
#66      

TGNAG

T
TGNAG
HensonHall71 said:
Frankly, winning the big ten is way down on my priority list - getting healthy and everyone back playing together to build momentum for the tournament is the top priority in my mind. As last year showed we can literally finish with the best record in the big ten and not be conference champs.

Making a run in the NCAA tourny is the ultimate goal to keep the momentum as a program, Big Ten titles just don't mean anything anymore
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Not to me or other older fans. The Conference Championship is extremely important and helps the seeding in the NCAA tournament. Bob Knight didn't see the need for Conference Tournaments because it took away from regular season champions. He won a few of them.
 
#67      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
danielb927 said:
Just a small point, but there is plenty of luck in a regular season as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for a Big Ten championship like crazy this year, especially a solo championship. It won't be easy. But I think the notion that the regular season doesn't involve any luck (not necessarily what you said, BTW, but definitely an attitude that's out there) is also wrong. Even 20 games is far from enough "averaging" to get rid of all the luck.

Adding to the other poster about unbalanced schedules, the WCC actually collaborated with KenPom last year to come up with an "adjusted" conference winning percentage to use for their tournament seeding in light of the many games that were cancelled.

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Sure, there's some luck involved. Even a 162 game MLB slate involves some luck. But you can't really equate the level of luck involved with a 20-game conference schedule in which all teams play each other at least once with a single elimination tournament. It's apples and bowling balls.
 
#69      

ejam21

E
ejam21
SampsonRelpenk said:
Agreed, save for swapping the last two. That said, with all the conference wins these last three seasons it would be a real gutter to not have gotten ONE regular season title.
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agreed...i think as of last week we have the best record of any b10 team over the last 3 years by FIVE games if i recall. crazy not to have a title with that ha
 
#70      

Calvin

C
Calvin
21ChampaignSt said:
I consider myself an actual basketball fan and I'm taking a Final Four over a conference championship every time. It's really not close for me.

And I'm ashamed of the things I would do for a Natty..
Click to expand...

Seems like an odd strawman to put Final Four up there. I don't think you'd get anyone saying otherwise. The OP was that conference champs don't mean anything, which I think is something a lot of us would disagree with.
 
#72      

21ChampaignSt

21ChampaignSt
21ChampaignSt
Calvin said:
Seems like an odd strawman to put Final Four up there. I don't think you'd get anyone saying otherwise. The OP was that conference champs don't mean anything, which I think is something a lot of us would disagree with.
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"Strawman argument" must be the phrase of the week.

I wasn't making an argument though. Not trying to convince you that I'm right or you're wrong. Just stating my personal preference.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if someone on here valued the regular season more than the tournament...the sample size argument. You occasionally hear similar takes regarding MLB regular season vs playoffs.
 
#75      

Illini Farmer

I
Illini Farmer
I am not sure why Jerry Palm is a bracketologist as his picks are usually a bit outlandish. This week he has Wisconsin as a 1 seed And Illinois as a 6. We are significantly higher in the net and Ken Pom than Wiscy.
 
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