2/21 Polls & Bracketology - Illinois #15 in AP Poll

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#51      

the national

the Front Range
I don’t like it, but it seems to me that Gonzaga is ranked right where they belong. The BIG had 8 teams in the tourney last year but failed to send even 1 team to the final four. Gonzaga played for the National Championship. This isn’t an anomaly either as Gonzaga has made it to the second week of the tournament every year since 2015!
Gonzaga benefits from the easier schedule. They are talented, no question. They do play a few tough games but the easier games are MUCH easier than the big ten regulars (minus Neb). This allows them to stay fresh and not get too beat up before the end of the season. The big ten teams are exhausted by the end of the BTT.
 
#52      
I like that a small school like the Zags get so much attention, it feeds the underdog in me. However, like many posters has highlighted, Mark Few has figured out how to game the system to maximize the opportunity for his team to be successful in a rigged system. P5 teams from strong conferences get all the media attention which drives everything in college basketball programs, whether it's recruiting, exposure, or seeding in the tournament. For those stating that they've been so successful in the tournament, another poster provided a link to the chart showing the relative success by seed in the tournament. The data show that a 1 seed (in fact 1-4 seeds) show significantly stronger results in the run to the championship in terms of number of wins in a tournament. If the Zags have figured out a way to be successful in their NCAA tourney runs, they've figured out that getting the best seed possible is the path towards that success, and that means they understand they play in what is essentially a turd bowl of a conference, and need to account for that with their non-con schedule. Even if they lose a couple of games early, their conference schedule is going to be a cakewalk in which they usually walk through undefeated or with only 1 or 2 losses (2016-2021). I'd venture to say if the Zags played in one of the P5 conferences, they would not have the gaudy conference records they've put together over the past 10 years or more, just due to the nature of getting beat up by stronger conference foes in the part of the season that the committee appears to pay more attention to.
 
#53      
I like that a small school like the Zags get so much attention, it feeds the underdog in me. However, like many posters has highlighted, Mark Few has figured out how to game the system to maximize the opportunity for his team to be successful in a rigged system. P5 teams from strong conferences get all the media attention which drives everything in college basketball programs, whether it's recruiting, exposure, or seeding in the tournament. For those stating that they've been so successful in the tournament, another poster provided a link to the chart showing the relative success by seed in the tournament. The data show that a 1 seed (in fact 1-4 seeds) show significantly stronger results in the run to the championship in terms of number of wins in a tournament. If the Zags have figured out a way to be successful in their NCAA tourney runs, they've figured out that getting the best seed possible is the path towards that success, and that means they understand they play in what is essentially a turd bowl of a conference, and need to account for that with their non-con schedule. Even if they lose a couple of games early, their conference schedule is going to be a cakewalk in which they usually walk through undefeated or with only 1 or 2 losses (2016-2021). I'd venture to say if the Zags played in one of the P5 conferences, they would not have the gaudy conference records they've put together over the past 10 years or more, just due to the nature of getting beat up by stronger conference foes in the part of the season that the committee appears to pay more attention to.
If the Zags were in the BIG this year, they would have a few more losses. But they would certainly be right with Purdue and Illinois competing for the conference championship.
 
#54      

InDaAZ

Eugene, Oregon
I like that a small school like the Zags get so much attention, it feeds the underdog in me. However, like many posters has highlighted, Mark Few has figured out how to game the system to maximize the opportunity for his team to be successful in a rigged system. P5 teams from strong conferences get all the media attention which drives everything in college basketball programs, whether it's recruiting, exposure, or seeding in the tournament. For those stating that they've been so successful in the tournament, another poster provided a link to the chart showing the relative success by seed in the tournament. The data show that a 1 seed (in fact 1-4 seeds) show significantly stronger results in the run to the championship in terms of number of wins in a tournament. If the Zags have figured out a way to be successful in their NCAA tourney runs, they've figured out that getting the best seed possible is the path towards that success, and that means they understand they play in what is essentially a turd bowl of a conference, and need to account for that with their non-con schedule. Even if they lose a couple of games early, their conference schedule is going to be a cakewalk in which they usually walk through undefeated or with only 1 or 2 losses (2016-2021). I'd venture to say if the Zags played in one of the P5 conferences, they would not have the gaudy conference records they've put together over the past 10 years or more, just due to the nature of getting beat up by stronger conference foes in the part of the season that the committee appears to pay more attention to.
Good points. What I can’t understand is how they get so many top recruits to find Spokane on a map and head north. Yes, a recent tradition of winning - I get that. But don’t the best players want to test their mettle against the best competition? Isn’t that a common theme of B1G recruits when they’re asked about their choice? And Spokane? I could be wrong, but there doesn’t seem to be a common overlap of elite young basketball players and fly fishing…
 
#55      

IlliniKat91

Chicago, IL
Good points. What I can’t understand is how they get so many top recruits to find Spokane on a map and head north. Yes, a recent tradition of winning - I get that. But don’t the best players want to test their mettle against the best competition? Isn’t that a common theme of B1G recruits when they’re asked about their choice? And Spokane? I could be wrong, but there doesn’t seem to be a common overlap of elite young basketball players and fly fishing…
But have you stopped to consider what the co-eds look like? /s
 
#57      

illini55

The Villages, FL
Actually this doesn’t surprise me at all. I wouldn’t say it reveals a “flaw” in seeding — what it shows is that there is more separation in quality between teams at the top than in the middle seeds.

Consider the “usual” first 2 games for the 9, 10, and 11 seeds:
9 seed - 8/1
10 seed - 7/2
11 seed - 6/3.

In all cases the average opponent seed is the same: 4.5. But the average quality is not.

Let’s look at an example assuming perfect seeding for the 2022 season, today. We can think of every seed based on the KenPom average efficiency margin rating of the four teams on that seed line. So, “seed 1” is the average of KenPom ranked teams 1-4, “seed 2” is 5-8, and so on.

By this metric, here’s the strength of the opponent seedlines in question:

1 seeds: +29.0
2 seeds: +25.2
3 seeds: +24.6

6 seeds: +18.0
7 seeds: +16.2
8 seeds: +15.8

This means beating a 1 and an 8 is harder (average of +22.4) than a 7 and 2 (+20.7) or a 6 and 3 (+21.3).

Of course, there’s also some difference in the 9/10/11 teams themselves:

9 seeds: +15.4
10 seeds: +14.9
11 seeds: +14.4

This clearly doesn’t outweigh the jump in opponent strength going from 7/2 to 8/1.

Add to this that 1 seeds almost never lose in round 1, while 2/3 seeds somewhat commonly lose, and you can see why the 9 seeds usually leave earlier than 10s and 11s. Moving up to the 9 line gets you a slightly easier first game in exchange for a much harder second game.

Of course, in any given season, there’s a lot of extra noise, and it could certainly be that the committee’s system tends to bias the real seeding away from this. The point is that even with ideal seeding—perfect ordering of the teams based on actual quality—it can be easier to make the Sweet Sixteen as a 10 or 11 seed, because the quality of teams does not change linearly with ranking.
Here's what I think is happening, without any research whatsoever. That's how I roll.

The 10, 11 and 12 seeds are very often the maybe great teams with great records from the smaller conferences. No one really knows how they will do or how good they are, because they've trounced a mediocre schedule. It's much like Indiana State back in the Larry bird era; they got no real respect until they started winning in the tourney. The 8/9 seeds, in particular, are very often the Power conference dregs, but they have good enough poll and NET ratings to get in. So, the schools with the gaudy records against nobody turn out every year to be pretty good, and we're all surprised. I see this every year, and it goes some way to explaining why the 12 seed is so effective, relatively speaking, against the 5 seed. When you see a 27-2 team like Manhattan against an 10 loss team from the Big Ten, who knows what will happen? This explains the aberration; you are welcome and if the facts don't support my hypothesis, shame on you for fact checking me!
 
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#58      
I think the Big 10 makes a big mistake of playing the conference tournament right before the NCAA Tournament starts. Playing that many games all the way thru the weekend pretty much insures that you will go into the NCAA Tourney with tired legs. I don't know if they have always done it that way or what they are thinking but they need to stop. Would be much better to play the BTT a week earlier so all the B10 teams that qualify get a week of rest. JMHO
 
#59      
Gonzaga benefits from the easier schedule. They are talented, no question. They do play a few tough games but the easier games are MUCH easier than the big ten regulars (minus Neb). This allows them to stay fresh and not get too beat up before the end of the season. The big ten teams are exhausted by the end of the BTT.
The WCC does not compare to the Big Ten top to bottom but St Mary’s, San Fran, BYU Are consider quad 1 games which helps them a lot
 
#61      
The WCC does not compare to the Big Ten top to bottom but St Mary’s, San Fran, BYU Are consider quad 1 games which helps them a lot
I think 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the WCC would beat 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the ACC head-to-head.
 
#62      
I think 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the WCC would beat 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in the ACC head-to-head.
Acc is horrible this year, and st Mary’s actually did beat ND, but I don’t think 3/4 would go in the WCCs favor. Too much talent at UNC
 
#63      
This is your weekly reminder that a team's NET rating is based on adjusted efficiency, not their records vs quadrants. NET is a team-quality-based metric, similar to KenPom and T-Rank.

Across the board, Gonzaga is #1 in every efficiency metric there is, because they've clearly been the best team this season.

Looking at results metrics (aka, how a team's resume looks vs how good they are), Gonzaga is 12th in WAB and SOR (Kansas is #1).

For those who think the NET formula needs to be recalibrated to adhere to your preconceived notions of team quality, maybe the reverse should be true.
 
#64      
I think the Big 10 makes a big mistake of playing the conference tournament right before the NCAA Tournament starts. Playing that many games all the way thru the weekend pretty much insures that you will go into the NCAA Tourney with tired legs. I don't know if they have always done it that way or what they are thinking but they need to stop. Would be much better to play the BTT a week earlier so all the B10 teams that qualify get a week of rest. JMHO
3 of the final 4 and 7 of the elite 8 played a conference tournament right before the NCAA tournament started. The B1G just had a lousy set of tournament games last year.
 
#65      
Gonzaga benefits from the easier schedule. They are talented, no question. They do play a few tough games but the easier games are MUCH easier than the big ten regulars (minus Neb). This allows them to stay fresh and not get too beat up before the end of the season. The big ten teams are exhausted by the end of the BTT.
They're the PSG of college basketball.
 
#66      
I think the Big 10 makes a big mistake of playing the conference tournament right before the NCAA Tournament starts. Playing that many games all the way thru the weekend pretty much insures that you will go into the NCAA Tourney with tired legs. I don't know if they have always done it that way or what they are thinking but they need to stop. Would be much better to play the BTT a week earlier so all the B10 teams that qualify get a week of rest. JMHO
Pretty sure it’s a financial decision. Being the last game before selection Sunday starts means a lot of eyes on your game.
 
#67      
This is your weekly reminder that a team's NET rating is based on adjusted efficiency, not their records vs quadrants. NET is a team-quality-based metric, similar to KenPom and T-Rank.

Across the board, Gonzaga is #1 in every efficiency metric there is, because they've clearly been the best team this season.

Looking at results metrics (aka, how a team's resume looks vs how good they are), Gonzaga is 12th in WAB and SOR (Kansas is #1).

For those who think the NET formula needs to be recalibrated to adhere to your preconceived notions of team quality, maybe the reverse should be true.
Piotyr, as one who has not spent much time (actually has spent zero time) digging into the NET metrics, I ask a few simple questions in an effort at least minimize my ignorance.

Don’t Gonzaga’s efficiency ratings reflect actual results, meaning they reflect outcomes based on real-world performance? Wouldn’t that rating then be influenced by the quality of the teams they play, and hence generate the ratings? I think of it this way - if the Beloved played Southwest Louisiana’s Teacher’s University’s (a fictional entity /s) JV squad the efficiency metrics would be very high, while playing vs a top 20 team would be yielding a much lower efficiency number. Spread across a season of playing JV squads would yield very high efficiency ratings, while the opposite would be true playing a schedule of top 20 teams all season. Gonzaga has been able to generate great efficiency ratings playing a cupcake schedule year after year, for which they’ve been able to reap the benefits by receiving high seeding in the tourney. I’m probably missing something here . . . .

In no way am I inferring that they’re not a very good team, I just believe their numbers are inflated because the quality of their opponents does not compare with the SEC, ACC, B1G, etc., and in fact would struggle in those conference much like all of those conferences do year in and year out when they would have to get beat up game after game by opponents with better quality players.
 
#68      
I think the Big 10 makes a big mistake of playing the conference tournament right before the NCAA Tournament starts. Playing that many games all the way thru the weekend pretty much insures that you will go into the NCAA Tourney with tired legs. I don't know if they have always done it that way or what they are thinking but they need to stop. Would be much better to play the BTT a week earlier so all the B10 teams that qualify get a week of rest. JMHO
Didn’t BIG do this at least one year recently — though not really by choice — when held tourney at Madison Square Garden? How did BIG do in NCAA tourney that season(s). Obviously from a fan or financial perspective it wasn’t popular as it has now switched back to arena where they can be last weekend before tourney.
 
#69      

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
Piotyr, as one who has not spent much time (actually has spent zero time) digging into the NET metrics, I ask a few simple questions in an effort at least minimize my ignorance.

Don’t Gonzaga’s efficiency ratings reflect actual results, meaning they reflect outcomes based on real-world performance? Wouldn’t that rating then be influenced by the quality of the teams they play, and hence generate the ratings? I think of it this way - if the Beloved played Southwest Louisiana’s Teacher’s University’s (a fictional entity /s) JV squad the efficiency metrics would be very high, while playing vs a top 20 team would be yielding a much lower efficiency number. Spread across a season of playing JV squads would yield very high efficiency ratings, while the opposite would be true playing a schedule of top 20 teams all season. Gonzaga has been able to generate great efficiency ratings playing a cupcake schedule year after year, for which they’ve been able to reap the benefits by receiving high seeding in the tourney. I’m probably missing something here . . . .

In no way am I inferring that they’re not a very good team, I just believe their numbers are inflated because the quality of their opponents does not compare with the SEC, ACC, B1G, etc., and in fact would struggle in those conference much like all of those conferences do year in and year out when they would have to get beat up game after game by opponents with better quality players.

Your example is correct, but what it’s missing is that all of these systems (NET, KenPom, T-Rank, whatever) adjust for the quality of opponent when converting the raw efficiency (what you describe) into an adjusted efficiency used to rank teams and predict future outcomes.

As a simple example, Gonzaga’s adjusted offensive efficiency this season per KenPom is 1.23 points per possession. That’s what you’d expect against an average opponent. But when playing a below-average team, they might be expected to score 1.3 or 1.35 points/pos., while against a top tier opponent maybe only 1.15 or 1.1.

So when Gonzaga manhandles Pacific, it only helps their metrics if they manhandle them by more than expected (which, for example, they did on 2/10 — expected to win by 35, actually won by 38).
 
#70      
Thanks Daniel. So the adjustment factor is a calculated figure based upon the opponent’s quality? How is this adjustment figure calculated, and how does it get factored as the season progresses and teams’ quality is refined?
 
#71      

Bwalk

Independence KY
Your example is correct, but what it’s missing is that all of these systems (NET, KenPom, T-Rank, whatever) adjust for the quality of opponent when converting the raw efficiency (what you describe) into an adjusted efficiency used to rank teams and predict future outcomes.

As a simple example, Gonzaga’s adjusted offensive efficiency this season per KenPom is 1.23 points per possession. That’s what you’d expect against an average opponent. But when playing a below-average team, they might be expected to score 1.3 or 1.35 points/pos., while against a top tier opponent maybe only 1.15 or 1.1.

So when Gonzaga manhandles Pacific, it only helps their metrics if they manhandle them by more than expected (which, for example, they did on 2/10 — expected to win by 35, actually won by 38).
Thanks for the explanation.
 
#72      
So the adjustment factor is a calculated figure based upon the opponent’s quality? How is this adjustment figure calculated, and how does it get factored as the season progresses and teams’ quality is refined?

Opponent strength is the deviation from the average of all teams. It changes as the season progresses because everything (i.e. the results of all games in the season) is recalculated every time the site is updated.
 
#73      

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
Thanks Daniel. So the adjustment factor is a calculated figure based upon the opponent’s quality? How is this adjustment figure calculated, and how does it get factored as the season progresses and teams’ quality is refined?
Opponent strength is the deviation from the average of all teams. It changes as the season progresses because everything (i.e. the results of all games in the season) is recalculated every time the site is updated.

I believe urbanite is correct. I don't know precisely how the adjustment is done, but I would guess it's described in a KenPom blog post somewhere. As I'm trying to make a similar rating system for women's college volleyball, hopefully I can explain it better in a few months!

As you can imagine, it's kind of a chicken/egg problem early on, which is why KenPom (and probably others) rely on some kind of pre-season estimate for team strength to start with. Once there are enough games played, these can be totally dropped and the adjustment can be made purely from the season's results.

One more interesting note, there is a consistent decrease in average efficiency across all games as the season progresses from November to March. We might be expected to beat Northwestern by 8 in December but only 7 in March, for example (those are totally guessed numbers). I haven't seen any reason proposed; you'd think practice time would have the opposite impact, so maybe it's better scouting or season fatigue winning out. In any case, KenPom also makes a small adjustment for this.
 
#75      
Thanks Daniel. So the adjustment factor is a calculated figure based upon the opponent’s quality? How is this adjustment figure calculated, and how does it get factored as the season progresses and teams’ quality is refined?
The exact formula has not been released to the public correct me if I am wrong. So we all know the general factors but not the exactness to reverse engineer.

I think it is a better metric than RPI was but there still needs to be calibrated

I don’t any computer can accurately capture all the dynamics of college basketball
 
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