2017 Coaching Carousel

LurkLongandProsper · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
Is this coming from somewhere? Why do people think this is a thing? I'm honestly asking.

Yeah, people keep saying they've read it on Twitter, but from who? Writing Illini? I would be absolutely ecstatic if that magically happened, but Bennett to Illinois just does not have any sort of legs to stand on other than that he wouldn't need to get new ties.

mattcoldagelli said:
I still think this is a helluva job. If it were down to us and GTown that's probably a pickem based on the candidate's personal preference.

I commented to this effect on an earlier page. I'm a little worried there. Every stop Keatts has been has been east coast or Louisville. Born in VA, Hargrave Military Academy is in VA, then Louisville (KY), and back to the coast at UNCW. Georgetown is a solid job, but Thompson III has hurt that reputation a lot, imo, little local respect for that program now even (family goes to GW or MD games instead). I think this would be a case where we trust JW to get it done, and learn a lot either way in the process. The one thing that will continue to be a trump card is B10 money.

Tevo · Jan 23, 2017

Tevo said:
Hasn't Cuonzo recruited BETTER the past three seasons than Self did at Illinois? From what I'm reading, he's pulling a 5-star pretty much every year. As far as I can remember, Dee Brown was Self's only 5-star in three seasons at Illinois. I'm sure I'll be corrected, if I'm wrong.

The difference, of course, was the Self took his (and Lon's) guys and won the conference twice and won 6 tournament games in three years. Cuonzo's done none of that.

Second and Chalmers said:
He has.

But my fear is that when Ayo Dosunmu commits to Kentucky after three days of our fake insiders telling us that he's already a silent verbal to Illinois that Cuonzo is just the latest Illinois coach whose stench of thirstiness and desperation practically fills the gym anywhere he goes on the recruiting trail.

I would so much rather have the fate of our next coach be fundamentally driven by thousands of hours of blood sweat and tears in Ubben rather than the whims of whoever the first 17 year old kid that coach invests his credibility in on one random day of a decision.

Lets go get that kid when we've got something on the floor to sell him, not just how popular he'll be with all of us old white dorks on the internet.

I'm so there with you, it's like we're skipping Double-Dutch on the same rope.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
I still think this is a helluva job. If it were down to us and GTown that's probably a pickem based on the candidate's personal preference.

There's still a real chance they're just going to refuse to fire John Thompson's kid, and if Big John isn't on board with the decision, the sense of living history that makes that program so cool all of a sudden hits a whole ton of turbulence.

And I don't know what to think about the Big East in general.

But on the other hand, if it really comes down to personal preference, I would not love our chances against Georgetown with someone who was a hoops-loving black kid from Virginia in the 80's.

WesterveltVictoryCigar · Jan 23, 2017

mattcoldagelli said:
Is this coming from somewhere? Why do people think this is a thing? I'm honestly asking.

#sources

golferjohn1970 · Jan 23, 2017

Gottfried isnt' going anywhere at NC State he just got a long term extension for four years why would they extend him then fire him two months later? I think we make a run at Archie Miller as well why not? Why would he wait around for the NC State job a red headed step child in the ACC? Illinois could be a top 4 program in the Big Ten with the right coach!!

Tevo · Jan 23, 2017

Obelix said:
Keatts is a great choice IMO, currently No. 2 in my realistic wish list. I would make a quick play with Archie as my first choice (tough but more realistic than Bennett or Smart/Stevens last search) and then quickly move to Keatts, Mack, and Quonzo in that order. I believe one of those 4 will take the job, without having to divert resources to multiple other options.

We better lose early in the Big Ten Tournament, so Groce can be fired on Thursday, and we can immediately send a bouquet to Wilmington before all those other programs can... Anyone know if Keatts likes chocolate?

golferjohn1970 · Jan 23, 2017

Tevo said:
We better lose early in the Big Ten Tournament, so Groce can be fired on Thursday, and we can immediately send a bouquet to Wilmington before all those other programs can... Anyone know if Keatts likes chocolate?

I like it Tevo get the plane gassed up after the BTT and sign him the day after.

Tevo · Jan 23, 2017

Tevo said:
We better lose early in the Big Ten Tournament, so Groce can be fired on Thursday, and we can immediately send a bouquet to Wilmington before all those other programs can... Anyone know if Keatts likes chocolate?

golferjohn1970 said:
I like it Tevo get the plane gassed up after the BTT and sign him the day after.

He won't do it -- he'll still be coaching and playing through the next weekend. But we can fill his damn office with flowers and balloons and big "We HEART Kevin" banners.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

golferjohn1970 said:
Gottfried isnt' going anywhere at NC State he just got a long term extension for four years why would they extend him then fire him two months later?

Huh? He signed that deal in December of 2015 and is 7-18 in conference in the two years since.

MadSeason · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
It's a free country. :usa:

(You're right. But I do think there is something to where Illinois is at with big time recruits that is more about the image of the program than the specific coaches involved.)

It all comes down to who is selling it. Big time kids are going to SLU, Auburn, Washington, W. Kentucky and Cal :thumb:

Illinois was in dumpster before Henson and he turned Illinois into place to be. With big assists from Tony Yeates and Jimmy Collins but there is nothing holding Illinois back other than guys who have/are leading it.

Obelix · Jan 23, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
I 100% agree with this list given the information currently available to us. Weren't you one of the folks of the stance that Archie was a no chancer, though?

Look at this, you and I agreeing, what has this thread come to?

On the contrary, Archie has been my top choice from the beginning, I think he would be a home run, tough, but not unattainable. Contrary to others who believe that he will wait for NC State, I believe all it matters whether we will have an opening this year vs. NC State and other jobs. Waiting for a dream job to open (NC State) is not a way to manage a coaching career.

For the record, here is what I have said, and think about Archie:

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=1249317&postcount=339
http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=1267675&postcount=2498
http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=1259119&postcount=727
http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=1248131&postcount=59

Smacko · Jan 23, 2017

MadSeason said:
It all comes down to who is selling it. Big time kids are going to SLU, Auburn, Washington, W. Kentucky and Cal :thumb:

Illinois was in dumpster before Henson and he turned Illinois into place to be. With big assists from Tony Yeates and Jimmy Collins but there is nothing holding Illinois back other than guys who have/are leading it.

Of those teams you mentioned, I don't think Martin might be the only coach we would have remote interest in. Ford can recruit but can't coach. Romar.. just no. Stansbury is just filthy and a walking NCAA infraction. Let's not even mention Pearl. Most of the guys you mentioned are slimeballs. Just because a guy can get kids to sign does not make him a good coach.

ILHoff · Jan 23, 2017

Tevo said:
This is my thought. Keatts seems primed to make the tournament again, and this time as perhaps an 11 seed (compared to a 13 last year). They could easily be 27-4 or better going into their conference tournament and could clearly win that, too, putting them around 31-4 as they enter the NCAAs. If he wins a game in the NCAA, let alone two, he's going to be the hottest name in the country for programs looking for a new coach.

Dramatic improvement, even without adding huge classes, or overhauling the roster

Lead assistant at a big time program (Louisville)

Listed at #3 among the "Most Feared Recruiting Assistants" (according to one article)

Young, charismatic, African American

The only possible checkbox left unchecked is "Tournament Success". He checks that one this year and he blows UP.

I think there are more unchecked boxes than that. I do believe coaches can make transitions to P5 schools, but that's not always the case. When you're going up against some of the best coaches in the country night in and night out some of those X and O advantages you previously had go out the window. So there is extra risk there when a guy hasn't been a head coach at the P5 level.

When you say "Most Feared Recruiters" that immediately reminds me that Groce was once number one on a list similar to that. What recruits has Keatts landed as a head coach? I feel like we've been down that path before.

Then when you factor in the lack of tournament success, as you stated, and I'm not seeing this as a slam dunk.

I'm leaning toward Cuonzo Martin, but Keatts is a compelling candidate.

golferjohn1970 · Jan 23, 2017

Why the Cuonzo love?

I think if JW hires Martin he will end up firing him in 3-4 years after he learns much like Groce he can't coach!! This guy has two 1st round NBA players and the best he can do last year is a 1st round exit and 23-11 record and they aren't that much better this year? He was mediocre at Tennessee as well only went to the dance once. He just reminds me too much of Groce only he can recruit but much like Groce he fails at coaching. I'd take Musselman and Keatts over Martin for sure.

golferjohn1970 · Jan 23, 2017

ILHoff said:
I think there are more unchecked boxes than that. I do believe coaches can make transitions to P5 schools, but that's not always the case. When you're going up against some of the best coaches in the country night in and night out some of those X and O advantages you previously had go out the window. So there is extra risk there when a guy hasn't been a head coach at the P5 level.

When you say "Most Feared Recruiters" that immediately reminds me that Groce was once number one on a list similar to that. What recruits has Keatts landed as a head coach? I feel like we've been down that path before.

Then when you factor in the lack of tournament success, as you stated, and I'm not seeing this as a slam dunk.

I like what I hear about Keatts don't wait another year then he will be gone like Underwood was last year. Keatts could probably get Tilmon to stay and Frazier too and could possibly make the tourney next year who knows.

I'm leaning toward Cuonzo Martin, but Keatts is a compelling candidate.

LurkLongandProsper · Jan 23, 2017

ILHoff said:
I think there are more unchecked boxes than that. I do believe coaches can make transitions to P5 schools, but that's not always the case. When you're going up against some of the best coaches in the country night in and night out some of those X and O advantages you previously had go out the window. So there is extra risk there when a guy hasn't been a head coach at the P5 level.

When you say "Most Feared Recruiters" that immediately reminds me that Groce was once number one on a list similar to that. What recruits has Keatts landed as a head coach? I feel like we've been down that path before.

Then when you factor in the lack of tournament success, as you stated, and I'm not seeing this as a slam dunk.

I'm leaning toward Cuonzo Martin, but Keatts is a compelling candidate.

In Cuonzo v Keatts, the thing that stands out to me is their tenures at Missouri State and UNCW. Not entirely dissimilar jobs IMO -- feel free to dispute this, but very dissimilar accomplishments for the two coaches.

Keatts: 62-24 (34-10), T-1st 2/2 years and 8-0 in conf to start this year, and NCAA tournament appearance year 2 (likely another this year)

Martin: 61-41 (26-28!), 10th/7th/1st in conference, no NCAAs.

In Martin's case, we know he can translate to a P5, but have yet to see any high level success there. Keatts is an unknown, but his resume at his existing stops has been excellent. It just boils down to if you want the safer choice or not. Personally, I'm more prone to take the risk.

MadSeason · Jan 23, 2017

Smacko said:
Of those teams you mentioned, I don't think Martin might be the only coach we would have remote interest in. Ford can recruit but can't coach. Romar.. just no. Stansbury is just filthy and a walking NCAA infraction. Let's not even mention Pearl. Most of the guys you mentioned are slimeballs. Just because a guy can get kids to sign does not make him a good coach.

Oh i didn't list them as potential candidates, just as an illustration that Illinois can get elite player with right coach. If these programs can do it so too can Illinois.

dmac279 · Jan 23, 2017

ChiefIllini said:
Is Mick Cronin another one of those pie in the sky names? I think he's more attainable than Sean Miller or Tony Bennett, but probably pretty high up there, especially considering his extremely deep ties to Cincy (Born & raised there + Alma Mater).

Similarly, Is Chris Holtmann's relationship with Groce too strong to pull him away? He's also a guy thats seeing massive success, so hes probably in that pipe dream pool too.

I'd still list those guys as the most attainable A+ hire's out there (although you could argue Holtmann is still a little unproven).

To me there's a lot of guys who pop up on here that just seem one season away from being a target. Musselman, Keatts, Mueller, McCall, Wade, etc. Just too inexperienced to be 100% in on. I'd argue all those guys have a better HC track record than Groce did, but Groce was considered an elite recruiter. If we are reaching into the mid-major riser's pool my vote is for Keatts then Musselman.

Me likey if we can't one of the big guys

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

golferjohn1970 said:
This guy has two 1st round NBA players and the best he can do last year is a 1st round exit and 23-11 record and they aren't that much better this year?

They're worse this year.

Dirtbags32 · Jan 23, 2017

Cuonzo, Travis Ford and Lorenzo Romar are all the same person - great recruiters of talent who've never done anything with it. No thank you.

LurkLongandProsper · Jan 23, 2017

Dirtbags32 said:
Cuonzo, Travis Ford and Lorenzo Romar are all the same person - great recruiters of talent who've never done anything with it. No thank you.

This feels a little unfair to Cuonzo. Lorenzo Romar, Johnny Jones are the worst in the biz in terms of getting nothing out of good recruiting, Cuonzo could be compared to Travis Ford (I can hear out an argument, still seems unfair at this point of his career, but I'll listen), but he is a significantly better coach than Romar or Jones.

mhuml32 · Jan 23, 2017

Second and Chalmers said:
He has.

But my fear is that when Ayo Dosunmu commits to Kentucky after three days of our fake insiders telling us that he's already a silent verbal to Illinois that Cuonzo is just the latest Illinois coach whose stench of thirstiness and desperation practically fills the gym anywhere he goes on the recruiting trail.

I would so much rather have the fate of our next coach be fundamentally driven by thousands of hours of blood sweat and tears in Ubben rather than the whims of whoever the first 17 year old kid that coach invests his credibility in on one random day of a decision.

Lets go get that kid when we've got something on the floor to sell him, not just how popular he'll be with all of us old white dorks on the internet.

This requires pinching your nose and ignoring the strong correlation between recruiting success and team performance, possibly because our current coach is "beating" the expectations.

Second and Chalmers · Jan 23, 2017

As long as we're talking about bad coaches wasting great recruits, here's a fun tidbit:

Jim Harrick's three assistants on his 1995 UCLA National Championship team were Steve Lavin, Mark Gottfried, and Lorenzo Romar.

That's like the Mount Rushmore of recruiters who can't coach.

DMan42 · Jan 23, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
This feels a little unfair to Cuonzo. Lorenzo Romar, Johnny Jones are the worst in the biz in terms of getting nothing out of good recruiting, Cuonzo could be compared to Travis Ford (I can hear out an argument, still seems unfair at this point of his career, but I'll listen), but he is a significantly better coach than Romar or Jones.

It's not just a little unfair, it's a ridiculous statement. It's a blanket statement that doesn't look at reality. And it doesn't seem to matter how many times people point out that last year's first round loss for Cal was without their starting point guard and leading scorer, plus their other guard.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

mhuml32 · Jan 23, 2017

LurkLongandProsper said:
In Cuonzo v Keatts, the thing that stands out to me is their tenures at Missouri State and UNCW. Not entirely dissimilar jobs IMO -- feel free to dispute this, but very dissimilar accomplishments for the two coaches.

Keatts: 62-24 (34-10), T-1st 2/2 years and 8-0 in conf to start this year, and NCAA tournament appearance year 2 (likely another this year)

Martin: 61-41 (26-28!), 10th/7th/1st in conference, no NCAAs.

In Martin's case, we know he can translate to a P5, but have yet to see any high level success there. Keatts is an unknown, but his resume at his existing stops has been excellent. It just boils down to if you want the safer choice or not. Personally, I'm more prone to take the risk.

Looking deeper, Cuonzo took over a Missouri State team that went 17-16 the previous season (with five seniors). Kevin took over a 9-23 UNCW team (with five seniors). Not saying this means Keatts is the better best, just found it interesting.