2017 Coaching Carousel
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IF we somehow finish 9-9 and win even one game in the B1G tournament, John Groce is here to stay for next year. Honestly, I would be okay with that. I really do not want to lose this recruiting class. Then either he surprises us all next year by putting together a satisfactory season, or it's a down year and we can him without losing much in the way of recruiting (this year's class is much larger).
Important caveat before I get yelled at: I am not a fan of John Groce at all. I also do not believe we will finish at 9-9. The above statement is just my philosophy IF we do.
Important caveat before I get yelled at: I am not a fan of John Groce at all. I also do not believe we will finish at 9-9. The above statement is just my philosophy IF we do.
You know what else is nuts? That most are saying Groce removal is a foregone conclusion. Not so fast.
Expensive to remove and replace Groce if we are truly seeking an absolute upgrade (by the way...what's that?)
Strong incoming class (if Groce somehow lands Smith....even stronger)
Grass is not ALWAYS greener (Think Whitman gets that)
It's apparent Whitman appreciates Groce on a lot of levels and wants him to succeed.
If we win 4 of next 6 we make the NIT. If we win 5 of next 6 and somehow win 1 BIG Tourny game...we are dancing.
I, personally, would like to see Groce retained for 1 more year. After that, there would not be any excuses at least not from me...I don't care if that says incoming guys have to play and perform. Other schools have that happen for them. It MUST happen for us too.
Fair enough....I took it as the other way (which explains my response), but you are correct.....each program and their needs as coach are completely independent of other programs as far as the "type" of person to lead those programs as far as experience, personality, etc.
That said, the VB hire, at least in my eyes (as well as the FB hire) gives me confidence Whitman will find the right person for the basketball position....whether its seen as outside the box, or right down the middle of the fairway.
?????????????
(1) Not expensive at all, Groce's buyout is basically as low as you'll find for a P5 coach, and he's due a bonus after this season if retained, and less expensive than a large number
(2) Grass is, without a doubt, greener elsewhere than it is on our lawn
I don't get how anyone can want another Groce year after typing the words "If we win X we make the NIT" in February.
Yeah, I can see where that could've been confusing. And I agree. I'm glad we aren't seeking coaches who fit inside a box of criteria (X years HC at [level], AA, previous player, anything like that). Find good coaches. Done.
It's a lot like recruiting, if you find a guy who you think is really good playing in, I don't know, Idaho or something against schools of 100 people, but he fits what you want and think he can make you better, you pursue that route where possible. Find the best fit, wherever they may come from.
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I wasn't trying to make the point that EVERY hire Whitman makes has to be a Lovie-esque hire. People do a great job of taking one sentence out of an entire post, making generalized statements from it, and then beating it into the ground.
The point still remains that Whitman should have more money at his disposal than the going rate for someone like Keatts and he doesn't have recruiting ties to the Midwest. Both of those points don't work in his favor. Once again, I'm not saying Keatts would be a bad hire, I just don't think he's at the top of the list.
kcib8130
- Parts Unknown
Must be nice to have the luxury of just not watching the basketball team play at all this season.
No one who has seen us play would make such a comment.
Just to say this first, by no means was that post directed at any individual in this thread -- it's a point that has been made by more than one person anyways. I am just objecting to that line of thinking/justification.
And I agree, I never said Keatts is our #1 target on the board. That said, after the de facto top guys (namely, Bennett and other top guys like Mack, etc), it gets a lot more subjective on who our top option is, and we shouldn't say nay to Keatts just because he doesn't check certain boxes. That's the point I (and others) have been trying to make. The folks who were saying "No way Keatts is the hire, Whitman will be looking for a 'lovie-esque' hire" (that is a very close paraphrase of a post in this thread) were taking advantage of a 1 hire sample size to turn that against Keatts, when in reality Whitman just wants good coaches, which Kevin Keatts certainly is, even if he hasn't been that in the P5 (yet).
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Let's talk about the expense. As noted, Groce's buyout is pretty reasonable all things considered. Then you subtract the $500K bonus that is due in April if you keep him. Also subtract off the loss of ticket sales as attendance continues to dwindle at the brand new SFC.
There really isn't any significant expense at all here.
Yes, good class. But not worth saving a coach over.
Well, sure. If Whitman didn't think he could get someone better, he's not going to make a move. Fortunately, that's not a real high bar to clear.
As he should. Unfortunately, it appears that isn't happening.
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
Something is certainly nuts here.
Illiniwek06
- N of I-80
+1. Not sure why people want to keep the 13th (arguably) / 14th (probably) best coach in the conference.
My guess is that Gottfried is gone from NC State they are 3-9 in the ACC and after not going to the tourney last year and results this year he will be replaced by Archie Miller who wants that job. I think this really comes down to Bennett (if interested and offer is right), Martin and Keatts. I guess throw Monty Williams in as a wildcard.
If Crean gets fired at Indiana does JW have any interest there? I think I'd pass when you really look at his stay at Indiana it's been hit or miss. He is 69-87 in the B1G which for Indiana is not acceptable. I know a lot of people will throw out his first 2-3 years due to the Sampson debacle but even the last 6 years he is 61-41 which is barely a .600 winning %. He is a decent coach but I'd go in a different direction if I were JW not go with a retread coach here.
BananaShampoo
Captain 'Paign
- Phoenix, AZ
Well, considering that Weber who was much lamented here as sub-par recruiter, managed to land two Top 15 classes and every class that he recruited (even pre-Jerrance) was top 60 taking out the '08 and '12 classes (which were basically nonexistent due to class imbalance), then yes, I think any average recruiter could average a Top 25 class to Illinois. Some years might be 10, some years might be 40, but 25 is a pretty good average and very doable considering our conference, history, facilities, and relative geographical proximity to excellent basketball hotbeds.
Do you think from their end they aren't legit or from JW's perspective? I think Miller will wind up at NC State for next year anyways.
This. Money won't be the primary factor for the coaches we are looking at. They will be more concerned if they care be successful long term than the size of the check. They all know someone will pay them, Whitman has to show what are program offers outside of money.
So we take out two classes to fit the narrative? That imbalance is what happens when you have a poor recruiter. Not looking to get a guy like Weber back. Talent trumps coaching every time. Unfortunately we have been starving for coaching for too long to not be blinded by it.
Lorenzo Romar and Johnny Jones beg to differ
Illwinsagain
- Cary, IL
Thanks for the info, looks like another great hire for Whitman and UI. #WeWillWin
I felt this way and defended Groce up to the Maryland loss at home. With his body of work I felt he really need that game and others to remain on the job. The complete dismantling at West Lafayette in front of Whitman convinced me that he was no longer safe. The loss to Minnesota sealed his fate if the loss to Purdue didn't. I like the recruiting class, but the next coach will have to do his best to keep the talent on the team.
On a side note, Martin is being viewed as a recruiter. IMHO he is a solid coach as well. He would of been exposed as a fraud by this point if he was not a solid or outstanding coach. The fact that his name is coming up here and other schools and Cal extending his contract speaks to his abilities.
IlliniInOK
- no longer in OK! Centralia, IL
I find myself thinking back to what WVC said, along the lines of "he shouldn't get credit for being better late just because they were so bad early. Sure, if we finish strong that will be a lot more fun to watch, but it doesn't erase all the reasons we have been calling for his head.
I don't know who will be hired, but I feel confident that Whitman will have it basically wrapped up before he even makes the move to fire Groce. I don't think it will be a long, drawn out process.
I don't know who will be hired, but I feel confident that Whitman will have it basically wrapped up before he even makes the move to fire Groce. I don't think it will be a long, drawn out process.
BananaShampoo
Captain 'Paign
- Phoenix, AZ
Not to mention Josh Pastner and Travis Ford.
Clearly not the point to bicker by throwing out talented teams with crappy coaches either (cough Rick Barnes Final Four cough). The point is that talent is going to make up for bad coaching more than coaching is going to make up for talent. This is an opinion, as I know your sole responsibility in life is to look up stats, but not everything is quantifiable.
Nah, that's Jerrance Howard's music you're hearing.
I think Rick Barnes would pretty comfortably land at about a 5 on that coaching scale, not to jump down into more examples though. That said, there are as many examples of high level success under a great coach with meh recruiting as there are of the opposite. There's not really a right answer there. The challenge is to find someone who is balanced and strong in both areas.
Personally, my biggest frustration with Groce has been squandering of talented kids, so that's why I'd rather have a coach who gets the most out of their guys. I think coaching also provides a more solid floor than a dependency on talent to overcome coaching deficiencies does, because coaching ability is far less fluid than recruiting.
That said, a lot of this is a largely subjective/philosophical dispute, as you referenced. (You could certainly quantify and generate correlations here, but I'm not paid to do that, so I'm not going to take the time go that deep into it). There is certainly a minimum talent level you need to really be successful in the P5, though. I think the point being made is it really isn't that hard to get the talent necessary to be a tournament team at Illinois.
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