2017 Coaching Carousel

Jkat00 · Feb 17, 2017

Bogey99 said:
Number of championships from over 30 years ago has very little to do with how good a school's coaching job is today. NC State really hurt themselves with how this went down.

Yep and some people want Whitman to fire Groce before seasons end. :frustrated::frustrated::frustrated::frustrated::frustrated::frustrated::frustrated:

ILLHangOut · Feb 17, 2017

Greensboro said:
And we are more than a regional draw? There's not many schools that can claim 2 NCAA championships. So even if you don't count the last one with Jimmy, they still have more than us. They just fired a coach who made the NCAA 4 of 6 years. When is the last time we had a recruit as high as Smith? Yeah, they have a Duke/UNC problem, but regionally at least they have a very strong brand. My point is we on this board tend to over rate our brand & I think you head somewhere neutral like outside of B1G/ACC, IMO I doubt the casual observer sees us above NCSU. Those pictures of Valvano celebrations & ESPY speech are part of the reason

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mark Smith?

I understand cautioning against overrating ourselves, and I'd have no objection if you said that the schools are similar. But I really don't have the sense from talking sports outside of Illinois that most people would see NC State as a "above" Illinois.

I've spent considerable time living outside Illinois, and I think our brand is definitely damaged, but maybe better off than you think. I don't know, its purely anecdotal.

ILLHangOut · Feb 17, 2017

I was curious, and I suspect this topic of NC State vs Illinois is going to come up more with both jobs being open so I am throwing some info out there.

Obviously, I'm biased, and I didn't dig too deep, but I did not intentionally exclude anything anti-Illini.

ATTENDANCE
Attendance #s over the last 10 years, with Illinois then NC State in parenthesis:
2016 - 27th - 12,723 - (8th)
2015 - 15th - 14,652 - (12th)
2014 - 15th - 15,246 - (25th)
2013 - 17th - 15,013 - (12th)
2012 - 14th - 14,986 - (20th)
2011 - 10th - 15,851 - (19th)
2010 - 12th - 14,870 - (24th)
2009 - 13th - 15,499 - (21st)
2008 - 11th - 16,618 - (16th)
2007 - 10th - 16,618 - (18th)
http://www.ncaa.org/championships/statistics/ncaa-mens-basketball-attendance

Illinois averages 1,000 more fans per game over the last 10 years, and has had a 92% capacity while NC State has had a 72% capacity. I did not realize how big NC States arena is at 19,772, wow.

VIEWERSHIP
I looked for viewership statistics but couldn't find any that weren't behind a paywall. I did find numbers on the top 10 highest rated games per conference:
BIG #1 @ 3 million per game
ACC #2 @ 2.5 million per game
https://www.statista.com/statistics/290382/average-viewership-per-ncaa-basketball-conference/

PUBLIC OPINION
Here is an article written in 2013 ranking the top 25 Men's BB jobs with Illinois at #17. NC State is listed with Arkansas, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga, Marquette, Oklahoma, Purdue, Villanova, Wisconsin, Xavier as "almost made the cut".
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/64621444

RESULTS
Tournament Appearances All-Time
Illinois - 31 NCAA, 6 NIT
NC State - 25 NCAA, 11 NIT

Tournament Appearances Last 30 years
Illinois - 19 NCAA, 4 NIT
NC State - 13 NCAA, 6 NIT
*Note that I'm not shaping the numbers by using a 30 year mark to avoid our disastrous '70s. Illinois had no NCAA appearances during the 1970s, but we had the same number of NCAA appearances (6) from 1980 - 1986 as NC State did from 1970 - 1986. They did have 3 NITs while we had 2 during that time.

Final Fours
Illinois - 5
NC State - 3

Elite Eights
Illinois - 9
NC State - 6

Sweet Sixteens
Illinois - 11
NC State - 11

Average Conference Standing All-Time
Illinois - 4th
NC State 6th

Average Conference Standing Last 30 years
Illinois - 5th
NC State - 7th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NC_State_Wolfpack_men's_basketball_seasons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Fighting_Illini_men's_basketball

REVENUE
Illinois - $86 million
NC State - $77 million
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

Jkat00 · Feb 17, 2017

peace davids said:
I was one of those people who wanted Whitman to send a clear message by firing Groce as soon as an at large bid to the NCAA Tourney was out of reach. Although I have come around thanks to some logical posters on this board, the situations at NCState and here are way different.

NCState is catching flack because they are firing a coach that has succeeded compared to program history, the leaks of the announcement, keeping him till season's end, AD instability, expectations, etc., not necessarily because it was just a fire in season.

I still think Whitman could do it tactfully, but it would put a lot of unnecessary pressure on him for almost no benefit. Season is almost over - there is no good reason to rush at this point.

I wasn't saying they were similar situations. Of course each one is different. Tom Crean won the B10 last year outright... yet he's about to fired in 3 weeks or leave for another HC job. Unless a coach is in trouble with the law/ncaa or any other obvious wrong doings, it's absolutely the wrong decision to fire a head coach mid-season.

Old Feb 14, 2017, 12:14 AM #5508 Report Post
peace davids
Location: Colorado
Posts: 664

I only posted the same thought for us because Williams can be hired immediately.
Yeah, that is why I am all for Groce getting the axe yesterday. We have no frontrunner that is going to take a bunch of heat for the rest of the year, like Archie will with NC State. Promote Walker to interim HC and start the search process - no secrecy or hesitation about Groce's job.

I say this because I really want our players to play free the rest of the year without the constant barrage of questions and unceartanty about JGs job status. Let them try to play it out without JG, make some noise in the BTT - have fun in whatever postseason tourney they get into, and end the year with some hope that Whitman will bring in a solid leader.

Same with recruits and the questions about JGs job. Fire the guy now, let Whitman talk to them about the future of the program and keep them onboard mentally until the new guy shows up, then let them decide what they want to do.

There are no downsides IMO.

So 3 days ago you were 100% ALL IN with firing Groce immediately. No downsides. Now there is no rush since the season is almost over with? And Archie Miller is a long shot for NC State.

ILLHangOut · Feb 18, 2017

Jkat00 said:
It's really not a secret that Cuonzo wants out of Berkley and back in the Midwest area. With tons of jobs opening up it's pretty much expected he will land one of them. He's absolutely recruiting Smith and watching others without contact for his next job. Very smart IMO.

I don't disagree with you, but I think to most people that is a secret. How would someone without connections know that Cuonzo is looking to get out of Berkley? I follow college basketball, but I've only heard that about Cuonzo from this board.

Like I said, I'm not doubting, or disagreeing with you, but it's not something I can just accept as truth.

Snyder005 · Feb 18, 2017

Is it sad that I'm more excited for who the next coach will be, then the next game?

I bleed orange and blue, but cutting starts too hurt after awhile.

ILLHangOut · Feb 18, 2017

Snyder005 said:
Is it sad that I'm more excited for who the next coach will be, then the next game?

I bleed orange and blue, but cutting starts too hurt after awhile.

I feel you. I used to lurk these boards for years just to have a head start on the season. It was Brumby, and Scout, and HQ. I didnt't find this board until they all fell apart (thank you Dan for keeping this place on point). Groce's substitution insanity brought me out of the woodwork. I was really just trying to understand it, and vent. I'm getting sucked in though. Maybe a coping mechanism?

Orange · Feb 18, 2017

burn it all down. Then add water and mulch

jonnymo · Feb 18, 2017

eMitch said:
I was at ISU during those years. I still remember me and my roommate jumping around the living room pouring beer on each others head after Nick Anderson hit the buzzer beater at Indiana.

Plenty of good times but I can't name a single person who thought Henson was good coach at the time. They all thought he was a good guy, but he took a ton of blame for not living up to expectations.

I'd take Henson every day and twice on Sunday over Groce

Someone also mentioned that most people thought Henson was a great practice coach but not a good in game coach. I never heard that. What I did hear A LOT and agreed with was not many people liked his playing style. It was very slow (Bo Ryan) and methodical.

peace davids · Feb 18, 2017

Jkat00 said:
So 3 days ago you were 100% ALL IN with firing Groce immediately. No downsides. Now there is no rush since the season is almost over with? And Archie Miller is a long shot for NC State.

You missed a key statement there from my post.

"Although I have come around thanks to some logical posters on this board"

And after going back... Gees Jkat, that logical poster was you! I even complimented you on a good response to my original firing post that changed my mind. Seems you missed that.

jonnymo · Feb 18, 2017

Fighter of the Nightman said:
I understand this thought process, but I can't emphasize enough how much of a cancer it has been on Illinois athletics not realizing its VAST inherent potential. RG was cheap as hell, and he ran Illinois athletics like a mom 'n' pop shop, and our results showed it: we might succeed in the short term from time to time, but we never grew. We never showed any inclination of wanting to be OSU or Michigan, and we should have.

Mike Thomas, for all of his faults, pushed the needle in the right direction on this. He probably overpaid for both Groce and Beckman, but it sent an important message: he wanted Illinois to be viewed as a big money school. A school with deep pockets that was committed to being big time in sports. Problem was, apparently, he didn't have the charisma or likability to get donors on board, and that was probably part of his ultimate demise. I believe Whitman has made the final step in this. With the Lovie hire, he showed not only a very impressive commitment to investing heavily in athletics but also in being able to get donors on board to pony up that cash.

I'm optimistic the days of "when have we ever spent money like that?" are long, long over.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't follow non revenue sports as well as I do revenue sports but if I remember right when JW heard Kevin Hambly was gonna leave volleyball for Stanford he tried derailing it by offering him an almost double pay raise.

JW is out filling his pockets with big donor money and isn't afraid to spend it and act quickly.

GortTheRobot · Feb 18, 2017

jonnymo said:
Another note on Henson's playing style. He played very slow and methodical except for a certain final four team lol

But he had the sense to recognize when he had Arabians and not Clydesdales. Our current coach can't even determine the animal.

SycIllini · Feb 18, 2017

jonnymo said:
I'd take Henson every day and twice on Sunday over Groce

Someone also mentioned that most people thought Henson was a great practice coach but not a good in game coach. I never heard that. What I did hear A LOT and agreed with was not many people liked his playing style. It was very slow (Bo Ryan) and methodical.

Looking back I really like what Henson did here. However I was in college during the mid 80's and remember my buddy and I seriously questioning Henson's coaching ability during games. Especially his substitutions. Oh to have those days back again.

Fighter of the Nightman · Feb 18, 2017

Dude, are we seriously down to fourth all-time in the Big Ten standings?! Last I pulled it, we were second.

Oh well, still the highest winning percentage of any B1G school all-time!

Adnarel · Feb 18, 2017

Orange said:
burn it all down. Then add water and mulch

I see the unseasonably warm weather has given you some spring fever as well.

Wittsdream · Feb 18, 2017

We went from JFG:

to FJG:

EJ33 · Feb 18, 2017

Jkat00 said:
It's really not a secret that Cuonzo wants out of Berkley and back in the Midwest area. With tons of jobs opening up it's pretty much expected he will land one of them. He's absolutely recruiting Smith and watching others without contact for his next job. Very smart IMO.

I suppose recruiting Charlie Moore last year was also part of his master plan to get a Midwest job.

cmore · Feb 18, 2017

EJ33 said:
I suppose recruiting Charlie Moore last year was also part of his master plan to get a Midwest job.

Its a bit of a long con...

RichBradIllini · Feb 18, 2017

Jkat00 said:
I wasn't saying they were similar situations. Of course each one is different. Tom Crean won the B10 last year outright... yet he's about to fired in 3 weeks or leave for another HC job. Unless a coach is in trouble with the law/ncaa or any other obvious wrong doings, it's absolutely the wrong decision to fire a head coach mid-season.

Old Feb 14, 2017, 12:14 AM #5508 Report Post
peace davids
Location: Colorado
Posts: 664

I only posted the same thought for us because Williams can be hired immediately.
Yeah, that is why I am all for Groce getting the axe yesterday. We have no frontrunner that is going to take a bunch of heat for the rest of the year, like Archie will with NC State. Promote Walker to interim HC and start the search process - no secrecy or hesitation about Groce's job.

I say this because I really want our players to play free the rest of the year without the constant barrage of questions and unceartanty about JGs job status. Let them try to play it out without JG, make some noise in the BTT - have fun in whatever postseason tourney they get into, and end the year with some hope that Whitman will bring in a solid leader.

Same with recruits and the questions about JGs job. Fire the guy now, let Whitman talk to them about the future of the program and keep them onboard mentally until the new guy shows up, then let them decide what they want to do.

There are no downsides IMO.

So 3 days ago you were 100% ALL IN with firing Groce immediately. No downsides. Now there is no rush since the season is almost over with? And Archie Miller is a long shot for NC State.

Might just be me but if I'm a coach under consideration that means I'm in the middle of a run to the tournament. Don't contact/distract me until I'm done with the season.

peace davids · Feb 18, 2017

RichBradIllini said:
Might just be me but if I'm a coach under consideration that means I'm in the middle of a run to the tournament. Don't contact/distract me until I'm done with the season.

That is a big negative for NCState. Archie is getting hounded by fans and media.

Deleted member 500209 · Feb 18, 2017

Wittsdream said:
We went from JFG:

to FJG:

Coaches fire coaches

CAHALL15 · Feb 18, 2017

OrangeAndBlues said:
Can we make an agreement? Can we all agree that beating a sad sack Iowa team does not mean Groce should be retained all of a sudden?

I don't have the energy to have this argument again and I just want to enjoy winning and thinking about what will be better next year with a shiny new coach.

I agree. The same thing happened after the NW win. Just wait until the next loss because there will be more.

cam · Feb 18, 2017

CAHALL15 said:
I agree. The same thing happened after the NW win. Just wait until the next loss because there will be more.

I really enjoyed the win today and hope we keep winning

Greensboro · Feb 18, 2017

TownieMatt said:
Wouldn't be shocked if Keatts lands at NCST. Makes more sense than Illinois in terms of area connections, and Illinois isn't a significantly better job at this point.

Fighter of the Nightman said:
8 years of sucking doesn't change the potential of a job like Illinois THAT much.

ILLHangOut said:
Mark Smith?

I understand cautioning against overrating ourselves, and I'd have no objection if you said that the schools are similar. But I really don't have the sense from talking sports outside of Illinois that most people would see NC State as a "above" Illinois.

I've spent considerable time living outside Illinois, and I think our brand is definitely damaged, but maybe better off than you think. I don't know, its purely anecdotal.

Dennis Smith Jr - Part of what 247 ranked 4th best class, only one 2017 so that sucess looks to be short lived
http://247sports.com/player/dennis-smith-jr-35676

The conversation started with us not being significantly better brand any more & a counter argument that seems to suggest even after the last few years we haven't fallen to the level of NC State. I'm not saying NC State is a better brand, but I personally think we are in the noise range. They have some problems in they are a bit of a little brother to NC & sitting in the same neighborhood with Duke as well. But Raleigh's not a bad place, they do have a strong standing in the state that is basketball crazy, 2 NC, & the picture of Jimmy V celebrating that gets played every March.

Greensboro · Feb 18, 2017

ILLHangOut said:
ATTENDANCE
Illinois averages 1,000 more fans per game over the last 10 years, and has had a 92% capacity while NC State has had a 72% capacity. I did not realize how big NC States arena is at 19,772, wow.

REVENUE
Illinois - $86 million
NC State - $77 million
http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/

NC State PNC Arena is home to Carolina Hurricanes as well, not that far from campus, but not likely walking distance either may hurt them a bit.

Revenues are nice, but that is more a statement of B1G money payouts & football...so not sure it adds that much prestige to the basketball job, but certainly gives us some flexibility going forward and when new big contract hits the difference is likely to grow. Might as well throw in the B1G network as well, ACC is just getting started & years behind.

2017 Coaching Carousel

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