Not to go all Norman Dale on you, but the rims are 10 feet high in Knoxville, Berkeley, and Champaign.
2017 Coaching Carousel
- Status
Not to go all Norman Dale on you, but the rims are 10 feet high in Knoxville, Berkeley, and Champaign.
I think you generalize to much on my posts beyond what is written vs. what you want to ague against. I never said that, just think that much of the buyout/contract discussion on some of the names is kind of irrelevant. As was in previous searches, including the last one.
Yeah, that's true. "Just open up your wallet for a big time coach" is the refrain of people with a limited understanding of the coaching market.
As I've said, the barrier at schools like Illinois isn't money for coaches, it's the ability to attract coaches worth the money.
I agree with that. I think Illinois would be willing to pay good, fair market value for coaching quality. Will they break the bank and pay extremes? Never done, never will.
Even in the last search, we were willing to pay very good (and fair) price for Smart, Stevens. Does this mean an offer they can't refuse? No, we will not do that. I think people are too much influenced by the Lovie hire. We paid a very good value for Lovie. For the value/quality of the coach, very fair price though. The difference IMO is that the Lovie hire was opportunistic (NFL coach, in transition, without a job/contract) whereas I think the basketball hire will be much different (more traditional, basketball coach, with contract, etc.).
My post referred to the discussions of $1M, vs. $500K, vs. even $2-3 M. I think that part of the discussion is irrelevant.
mhuml32
- Cincinnati, OH
My list:
Make a phone call and hope they don't hang up
Tony Bennett
Fred Hoiberg
Chris Mack
Gregg Marshall
Agressive, but would create buzz
Archie Miller
Cuonzo Martin
Guys who likely accept the offer and reach the hiring standard
Ben Jacobsen (rough start to this year)
Kevin Keatts
Eric Musselman
Please do not hire from this group
Kermit Davis
Dan Muller
Matt McCall
Scott Cross
Make a phone call and hope they don't hang up
Tony Bennett
Fred Hoiberg
Chris Mack
Gregg Marshall
Agressive, but would create buzz
Archie Miller
Cuonzo Martin
Guys who likely accept the offer and reach the hiring standard
Ben Jacobsen (rough start to this year)
Kevin Keatts
Eric Musselman
Please do not hire from this group
Kermit Davis
Dan Muller
Matt McCall
Scott Cross
The most significant barrier in our previous searches was Mike Thomas.
Ron Guenther and Neale Stoner made some outstanding coaching hires.
Whitman is not a barrier, but rather an asset. We should be able to agree that he is a five star human being.
Wittsdream
- Chicago
First off, apologies for the long rant. It's a by-product of being a frustrated lifelong Illini fan.
But to your point about Martin, Matt.........I'm hoping this happens, and the overarching reason is pretty cut and dried.........RECRUITING, RECRUITING, RECRUITING!
We've all bemoaned the massive recruiting misses (perhaps miscalculations is a more apt term), even dating back to the late Henson and Kruger eras (remember the '98 class, and missing out on Richardson, Maggette and Simmons?), but certainly elevated to "horror show" status under Weber and Groce.
If Groce landed any one of Jackson, Snider, Brunson, Evans or Moore, this thread would likely not even exist. Heck, even avoiding a "lack of institutional control" over players like Nunn and Paul, we're likely comfortably in the conversation for Big Ten contention and an NCAA tourney berth. But, combining failures on both of those fronts surely signals the deathknell for Groce's future at Illinois.
I grew up watching the Henson teams of the 80's, and often times there would be little to no offensive scheme on display. His teams were just so athletic, talented and had that junkyard dog mentality, that they simply transcended some of Henson's shortcomings. Still, they had an overall team identity, and commitment on defense, for which Henson deserves some credit. But looking back on that great Flyin' Illini team of '89, for example, people often joked about how their best offense was a missed shot, followed by an offensive rebound and putback. Moreover, on the defensive side of the ball, they surrendered an unseemly opponents' FG% that year of 46.1%. Yes that team which had the reputation of being so suffocating on defense. Of course, they shot over 51% themselves, which still ranks among the highest in school history, but the point remains..........let the players do their thing, and don't stultify their natural instincts with overcoaching, like so many head coaches are guilty of these days.
We are staring at the strong likelihood, both on the court and off the court, futility that has not been seen since the program's lowest ebb in the mid-1970's. Last year, in the inaugural year of the completely renovated $175 million State Farm Center, yielded the lowest attendance figures since 1977! And if Groce fails to make the tourney for a 4th consecutive season, that would mark the first time in four decades that has happened.
That is truly unconscionable, and utterly inexcusable for a Top 15 legacy program that Illinois has historically been.
The hiring of Martin (if he's in fact truly interested in leaving Berkeley) would go a long way in not only retaining our prime recruit at the moment, Jeremiah Tilmon, but more than likely our entire 2017 recruiting class.
To boot, I would bet the farm that ESL metro area product Mark Smith would immediately verbal to UI soon after the hire. Additionally, UI with Martin at the helm would more than solidify our standing with '19 ESL recruits Liddell and Hargrove as well. We are already favorites with Groce as the HC.
If that isn't enough, Martin is involved with 2018 Illini target Ayo Dosunmu from Morgan Park, the same school Charlie Moore attended (currently a star in Martin's offense as a true freshman). Not sure how that would play out as far as Moore's input on Martin (re: Dosunmu), were he to depart for Illinois, leaving the Cal program in the dust. OTOH, Dosunmu will see that Martin is the type of coach that gives freshmen ample opportunities from the word go........unlike the coffee bean salesman we currently have as the face of our program, who is all too content in retarding the development of talented freshmen in favor of "seasoned" veterans.
Finally, Martin is heavily involved with 6-10, 2019 PF Jordan Brown, one of the truly elite players in the country, who has been compared to Kevin Durant. Now, it's unlikely that Brown, who is being recruited almost exclusively by west coast powers like UCLA and Arizona, would see greater opportunity at Illinois under Martin than at those proven, warm weather blue bloods, but stranger things have happened. With Tilmon likely still on board, and Brown projected to be a one and done, they would make for an unbelievable tandem, and Brown would only have a one year layover enduring a Champaign winter before heading off to the NBA, and, most importantly, would not have to play a minute at center in his brief college stint.
With all the caveats regarding Martin's plodding offensive style (courtesy of Keady), he would inject some much needed defensive toughness back into this program, and be competitive against the top programs in the country (his current team is 13-5/4-2 in the Pac 10, and lost tough games to ranked teams Virginia and Arizona at home - by 3 and 5 points, respectively - and by 10 to NC contender UCLA on the road, a team that has scored 80 or more points in all but two of its 19 games, and exceeded 100 pts six times).
Compare those results with what we've witnessed under Groce in just the last few weeks alone!
Getting Martin on board, immediately upon completion of this season, gives Illinois the best chance at not only retaining our current recruiting momentum in the part of the state producing some of the best talent (Martin's own backyard), but it gives us someone who will make us much more relevant going up against the dicey politics in the Chicago scene and with the gregarious/egomaniacal inner city HS/AAU coaches, something we really haven't had since Jimmy Collins was here landing the prime talent in Chicago. As an added bonus, Martin now has recruiting roots firmly planted in Los Angeles as well.
I also think it's unavoidable to not contextualize such a hire within the this racially charged climate we presently find ourselves in nationally, especially in the state of Illinois. The prospects of bringing in an African-American basketball coach AT THIS TIME, (to go along with the Lovie Smith hiring in football), will pay huge dividends from a PR standpoint, however politically correct that may come across.
But look at the PC history we're talking about here, if we're going to be "on the level" about such topics. University brass capitulated to lobby groups, both within and outside the UI, who were ultimately victorious in jettisoning Chief Illiniwek as the school's mascot, so it's part and parcel of not only the university's protocol, but of a much wider socio-political agenda that runs throughout this somewhat divided state.
And to borrow Groce's hackneyed euphemism, Whitman might be envisioning the possibility of a Martin hire as the future path to get this program "cleaned up," and fast!
illiniCA
- DC Area
A couple questions from a guy who doesn't know the politics of this...
Why are "all-star" coaches out of the realm of possibility? Are all those guys just waiting for blue blood spots or is it something else?
Should be expect better results given that Whitman seems to be good a building relationships with people?
How the heck did we end up with Lovie?..Luck?
Why are "all-star" coaches out of the realm of possibility? Are all those guys just waiting for blue blood spots or is it something else?
Should be expect better results given that Whitman seems to be good a building relationships with people?
How the heck did we end up with Lovie?..Luck?
Again, I'm struggling to discern whether the tone here is "we have no reason to do something stupid and lock ourselves into a Kirk Ferentz deal" or "Illinois will never try to win for real and we're all rubes for dreaming".
I'm not comfortable saying "never" to any possibility, I'll say that much.
I love coach Groce the person and as much as I can wish for an 11th hour revival, I just don't see him turning this thing around.
With that said I think after this season is the perfect time for a change... A large incoming class, downstate talent, very good '18's available too. I think we probably lose Frazier, but I feel like Da'Monte is a lock to come regardless and the new coach will have some time to sell Pickett and Tilmon and hopefully Smith on his new system.
DJ may even stick around if given a fresh start.
If Whitman delays the decision another season we will be in a weaker position for the next guy IMO.
With that said I think after this season is the perfect time for a change... A large incoming class, downstate talent, very good '18's available too. I think we probably lose Frazier, but I feel like Da'Monte is a lock to come regardless and the new coach will have some time to sell Pickett and Tilmon and hopefully Smith on his new system.
DJ may even stick around if given a fresh start.
If Whitman delays the decision another season we will be in a weaker position for the next guy IMO.
It depends on who you're talking about. In general, coaches are loathe to leave winning situations in major conferences where they're being paid a bunch of money. For any job.
10% willingness to think and act outside the box (on the part of senior members of the administration, in addition to Whitman), 90% luck
I second your doubling back - the comparison is absolutely ridiculous. Reposting my earlier post on this.
I see no way Whitman decides to keep Groce at the end of this year. The class coming in is fine but nothing that changes the future of Illinois basketball on its own. If Illinois was willing to spend what they did on Lovie they will have no problem paying for a "name" coach who creates more excitement and I will predict that all of the recruits who are committed will remain committed to the new coach. John Groce is a very likeable guy but the writing is on the wall.
Even many mid major coaches have this attitude recently (Marshall, Smart, etc). They might get more money, but they are still well compensated where they are and have tons of job security. Whereas a move to the high major means high pressure and a chance at being out of a job in 3-5 years if things don't go well.
While expecting to lose a recruit or two out of a good class upon a coaching change is reasonable, one of the reasons I have hope we wouldn't (and another reason I'm glad he's our AD) is Whitman. I can very much see him keeping our current commits, maybe even visiting them, and at least getting them in front of what we all hope to be a great hire who may even give them more reason to want to be an Illini.
That may be optimistic, but if any AD can do it I am confident it's Whitman.
Painter is from that tree and he is doing well for being at Purdue.
You mean like this??
Attachments
I feel your entire rant here was pretty solid analysis...but this, for me, is a key factor.
Listening to Groce after each of these debacles makes me think he knows something we don't. Hmmmm, new and aggressive AD and a strong recruiting class all of the sudden. Maybe we are missing the big picture and the program has taken the chains off? Maybe bigger things on the recruiting trail are in the pipeline? All of this is speculation but Groce sure seems calm and confident for a guy on the cusp of replacement.
Illini1221
Peru,IL
I respect a guy who keeps everything thing in the locker room. There is no reason for him to act like a child towards the media just because things arent going right. He knows that his team is struggling, but that doesn't mean he needs to go bananas in his post game pressers because of it. Hes struggling, but the way he handles himself has never been a question and should never be a question.
89illinigrad
- Chicago
First off, apologies for the long rant. It's a by-product of being a frustrated lifelong Illini fan.
But to your point about Martin, Matt.........I'm hoping this happens, and the overarching reason is pretty cut and dried.........RECRUITING, RECRUITING, RECRUITING!
We've all bemoaned the massive recruiting misses (perhaps miscalculations is a more apt term), even dating back to the late Henson and Kruger eras (remember the '98 class, and missing out on Richardson, Maggette and Simmons?), but certainly elevated to "horror show" status under Weber and Groce.
If Groce landed any one of Jackson, Snider, Brunson, Evans or Moore, this thread would likely not even exist. Heck, even avoiding a "lack of institutional control" over players like Nunn and Paul, we're likely comfortably in the conversation for Big Ten contention and an NCAA tourney berth. But, combining failures on both of those fronts surely signals the deathknell for Groce's future at Illinois.
I grew up watching the Henson teams of the 80's, and often times there would be little to no offensive scheme on display. His teams were just so athletic, talented and had that junkyard dog mentality, that they simply transcended some of Henson's shortcomings. Still, they had an overall team identity, and commitment on defense, for which Henson deserves some credit. But looking back on that great Flyin' Illini team of '89, for example, people often joked about how their best offense was a missed shot, followed by an offensive rebound and putback. Moreover, on the defensive side of the ball, they surrendered an unseemly opponents' FG% that year of 46.1%. Yes that team which had the reputation of being so suffocating on defense. Of course, they shot over 51% themselves, which still ranks among the highest in school history, but the point remains..........let the players do their thing, and don't stultify their natural instincts with overcoaching, like so many head coaches are guilty of these days.
We are staring at the strong likelihood, both on the court and off the court, futility that has not been seen since the program's lowest ebb in the mid-1970's. Last year, in the inaugural year of the completely renovated $175 million State Farm Center, yielded the lowest attendance figures since 1977! And if Groce fails to make the tourney for a 4th consecutive season, that would mark the first time in four decades that has happened.
That is truly unconscionable, and utterly inexcusable for a Top 15 legacy program that Illinois has historically been.
The hiring of Martin (if he's in fact truly interested in leaving Berkeley) would go a long way in not only retaining our prime recruit at the moment, Jeremiah Tilmon, but more than likely our entire 2017 recruiting class.
To boot, I would bet the farm that ESL metro area product Mark Smith would immediately verbal to UI soon after the hire. Additionally, UI with Martin at the helm would more than solidify our standing with '19 ESL recruits Liddell and Hargrove as well. We are already favorites with Groce as the HC.
If that isn't enough, Martin is involved with 2018 Illini target Ayo Dosunmu from Morgan Park, the same school Charlie Moore attended (currently a star in Martin's offense as a true freshman). Not sure how that would play out as far as Moore's input on Martin (re: Dosunmu), were he to depart for Illinois, leaving the Cal program in the dust. OTOH, Dosunmu will see that Martin is the type of coach that gives freshmen ample opportunities from the word go........unlike the coffee bean salesman we currently have as the face of our program, who is all too content in retarding the development of talented freshmen in favor of "seasoned" veterans.
Finally, Martin is heavily involved with 6-10, 2019 PF Jordan Brown, one of the truly elite players in the country, who has been compared to Kevin Durant. Now, it's unlikely that Brown, who is being recruited almost exclusively by west coast powers like UCLA and Arizona, would see greater opportunity at Illinois under Martin than at those proven, warm weather blue bloods, but stranger things have happened. With Tilmon likely still on board, and Brown projected to be a one and done, they would make for an unbelievable tandem, and Brown would only have a one year layover enduring a Champaign winter before heading off to the NBA, and, most importantly, would not have to play a minute at center in his brief college stint.
With all the caveats regarding Martin's plodding offensive style (courtesy of Keady), he would inject some much needed defensive toughness back into this program, and be competitive against the top programs in the country (his current team is 13-5/4-2 in the Pac 10, and lost tough games to ranked teams Virginia and Arizona at home - by 3 and 5 points, respectively - and by 10 to NC contender UCLA on the road, a team that has scored 80 or more points in all but two of its 19 games, and exceeded 100 pts six times).
Compare those results with what we've witnessed under Groce in just the last few weeks alone!
Getting Martin on board, immediately upon completion of this season, gives Illinois the best chance at not only retaining our current recruiting momentum in the part of the state producing some of the best talent (Martin's own backyard), but it gives us someone who will make us much more relevant going up against the dicey politics in the Chicago scene and with the gregarious/egomaniacal inner city HS/AAU coaches, something we really haven't had since Jimmy Collins was here landing the prime talent in Chicago. As an added bonus, Martin now has recruiting roots firmly planted in Los Angeles as well.
I also think it's unavoidable to not contextualize such a hire within the this racially charged climate we presently find ourselves in nationally, especially in the state of Illinois. The prospects of bringing in an African-American basketball coach AT THIS TIME, (to go along with the Lovie Smith hiring in football), will pay huge dividends from a PR standpoint, however politically correct that may come across.
But look at the PC history we're talking about here, if we're going to be "on the level" about such topics. University brass capitulated to lobby groups, both within and outside the UI, who were ultimately victorious in jettisoning Chief Illiniwek as the school's mascot, so it's part and parcel of not only the university's protocol, but of a much wider socio-political agenda that runs throughout this somewhat divided state.
And to borrow Groce's hackneyed euphemism, Whitman might be envisioning the possibility of a Martin hire as the future path to get this program "cleaned up," and fast!
Not to pick nits, but the only reason that the 1989 team gave up such a high FG% on defense is that they pressed the entire game. When teams beat a press, they often are presented with a good scoring opportunity. However, it should be noted that the 1989 team also had 341 steals, by far the most in Illini history, an average of over 9 per game. THAT was the team's defensive identity.
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
Sorry, did not mean to say that Thomas did not ask, but rather that people on here who are putting out names that are likely not viable are "asking" or dreaming or hoping or whatever single word verb is most apt. Just saying that a message doesn't have to be 100% realistic.
You're waaaaaay overthinking this one. I think he's just been doing this for a long time and I think he realizes it's not healthy to get too caught up in the moment, or at least to show that in a press conference. People were upset when he got a little emotional about a question earlier in the year so now when he's mild-mannered in a presser, something's up?
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