It never ceases to amaze how much work the vaguest whiff of ties to the school is able to do in these analyses for some people.
2017 Coaching Carousel
- Status
It never ceases to amaze how much work the vaguest whiff of ties to the school is able to do in these analyses for some people.
Deleted member 29907
D
Guest
Anyone else watch the MSU game the other day - they looked an awful lot like us - no flow to the offense, hero ball, pick up dribble with no where to go, no off ball movement. Small sample size but it did not look like a 'coached up' team.
I haven't seen this much hate toward an Illinois basketball coach since Bruce Weber.
I don't think anyone has expressed any kind of hate toward John Groce. Many have expressed frustration with the team they love not performing at the level we have come to expect and the responsibility for that falls on the last two "really good guys" that just haven't shown the ability to coach/recruit to the level of those expectations. Sports is a results oriented business. They know that and are paid extremely well to achieve those results.
That is definitely an attribute of a good coach.
Just needs to be said, that is explicitly not the situation facing the 2016-17 Illini.
illynifan34
That's a winner!!
- OH
In his defense his premise was the 2005 Illini and we do have less than that right now.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
so what is the supposed "baggage" around buzz williams?
Sure, but so does every coach in the country. I haven't seen a team in a couple years that would beat those guys.
Wasn't there rumblings of him covering up/ keeping hush hush sexual assaults committed by his players during his time at Marquette.
Lots of disciplinary stuff, supposedly he left Marquette before he was fired or the posse got there.
If Groce gets fired, I could see tOSU trying to hire him back on as an assistant and lead recruiter. I'd try to make him the highest paid assistant in the country if I were them. Oden, Conley, Cook, Koufos, Turner, Diebler, Mullins, Buford, Sullinger, Craft, and Thomas were all recruited to tOSU by Groce. It took a few years after he left to become a HC, but boy have they fallen off their perch from a few years ago ever since he left.
Last edited by a moderator:
Joel Goodson
- respect my decision™
Only one vote matters, Whitman's. Think Groce needs to make the dance to keep his job. Rightfully so, IMO. You don't keep a failure on in order to retain a recruiting class. If kids opt out, so be it.
Remember when the goal was making it to the second weekend? When making the tournament was a given? When most teams didn't have a chance when we were at home?
FeelYourPaign
- So Cal
I do remember and I miss it.
Agree that the end of this season is the time to do whatever the evidence says is the best thing to do for the long term, not the short.
I think it is more likely to be a change, but it would be great if that was not the evidence
Agreed.
Just pointing out that often Groce is given a pass because the personnel or roster isn't just so.
This team is less than sum of its parts
Deleted member 3875
D
Guest
I'll take Archie Miller.
People are vastly overrating the quality of this class. If anything, this should be the standard of a 'meh' class at Illinois. 1 outside RSCI top 200, 3 outside RSCI top 100, and 1 top 50. It's a solid/decent class. This class is not going to come in and make us significantly better. Remember, our depth chart at C, assuming class holds, will be Tilmon and Finke, and our PG depth chart will be TJL/Frazier/Damonte(?). That's a lot of really inexperienced (if only he'd play TJL...) minutes at key positions.
Outside of Tilmon, nobody in this class is a "keep the coach for the recruit" caliber guy, and Tilmon is currently #25 RSCI. Hardly a Lonzo Ball caliber recruit (for your Steve Alford comp) -- and also, Alford has been recruiting at a higher level than us, and has made the tournament in 2/3 of his seasons at UCLA (his hot seat was because he missed the tournament, which is not acceptable at UCLA, and should not be here, either -- let alone missing in going on 4 consecutive years).
IMO, we've seen more than enough of John Groce to know he isn't a long term leader for our team. If we didn't have to extend him to retain him for next year, then i could see keeping him if you don't love the available replacement options, but we'd have to extend him, and that's not worth it. The recruiting class is definitely not a reason in my mind to keep him. We should be able to sign multiple top 100 kids a year, especially when we have 6 rides. And he's shown us absolutely nothing on the court with guys who didn't have at least 2 years of development under Weber.
Personally, I am fully committed to Capel/Archie/Jacobson as my top 3 targets, personally. I'm a little surprised Capel hasn't had more support in these discussions.
Last edited:
mattcoldagelli
- The Transfer Portal with Do Not Contact Tag
^^^^^^true statements^^^^^^
/
Yeah, fair points, but he's one of the better recruiters in the country, had decent stints at OU and VCU, and has spent 5 years as a top assistant at Duke. Personally, I'd be willing to give him another stint with that resume. For the people afraid of mid major coaches, he should be at the top of their list, no?
Yeah, fair points, but he's one of the better recruiters in the country, had decent stints at OU and VCU, and has spent 5 years as a top assistant at Duke. Personally, I'd be willing to give him another stint with that resume. For the people afraid of mid major coaches, he should be at the top of their list, no?
Disagree. He was both.
I don't think you need to unduly rag on this class in order to understand that next year's roster is weaker and less likely to succeed than this year's, assuming the same system and coaching staff.
The Worm
- CHICAGO, IL
I am of the belief that Groce critically erred by continuing to take transfers early in his tenure versus using the scholarships to develop freshman at critical positions of need. Specifically, the decision to bring in Ahmad Starks and have him subsequently eat a scholarship for two years significantly set the rebuild back, IMO. Relying on this false depth and lack of talent has prevented any offensive identity from forming to this day, and might ultimately cost him his job.
I'm intrigued to see what Whitman can accomplish should a coaching search become necessary.
In regards to our recruiting class, it stacks up favorably versus the rest of the conference and that's something that hasn't been done in a while.
I'm intrigued to see what Whitman can accomplish should a coaching search become necessary.
In regards to our recruiting class, it stacks up favorably versus the rest of the conference and that's something that hasn't been done in a while.
I agree with the rest of your post, but the contract is not really a big issue, actually a non-issue. Groce has no leverage negotiating buyouts or guaranteed money, UI has all power/control in that negotiation. They can extend him without any guarantees/buyouts on their own terms, if Groce does not like it, he can walk and practically end the relationship. Groce has no option other than to accept terms or look for a job.
Contract extensions are a concern for coaches who have been able to negotiate favorable terms when things were going their way. As long as Whitman does not make the same mistake as Guenther (i.e., giving Weber extraordinarily good terms), which he won't, the contact extension is not a key issue.
I am as excited to see what Trent Frazier and Tilmon can bring as any, but they are being touted at an unfair level (to them) right now. I'd rather temper expectations now than have fans go after them next year just because Piper/Werner/etc touted them as an elite class, when the reality is that it's just a solid class that may not provide more than 1 high level freshman contributor. And it's certainly not a coach-saving tier class.
You're right, we could easily give him a smokescreen extension that wouldn't add much in the way of additional buyout $ or anything like that. You've made a good point here.
That said, I don't think an extension would do anything positive if it's just to kick the can a year on finding a new coach. I don't think our roster next year is set up to succeed more than it is this year (on paper), and it seems that would only further fracture/distance the fanbase who is still actively engaged with the program. But, if it turned out JW didn't like any of the available candidates as a fit and went that route, so be it.
Also, we need to decouple "great class" from "we're going to immediately win more games".
That's not how freshmen work. Jeremiah Timon has a higher ceiling than Malcolm Hill did as a HS senior, but he will be nowhere near the player as a college freshman that Hill is right now. If he can be Mike Thorne with a little more athleticism next year and give us 20-25 good minutes, that would be a damn fine freshman contribution.
Unless he and his staff miraculously learned how to coach defense, it wouldn't matter if he had a Kentucky class.
- Status