People in the know have stressed as much. The reasoning I'm not so sure of.
If you believe "people in the know" then Cuonzo Martin has already accepted the job as the next Illini basketball coach, so we might as well close down the thread
People in the know have stressed as much. The reasoning I'm not so sure of.
I think you'd be hard pressed to make a case for Fran as good coach, and if someone said that missing the tournament 4 years in a row (without multiple injuries) before he got better did not matter, it would be hard not to make a similar case for Groce.
Iowa is 11-9 and 3-4 in conference currently, having lost 2 in a row, currently not an NCAA team. They are not much better than us right now and we are at a low point performance-wise contemplating firing our coach (which says even less IMO of Iowa and Fran).
I guess I don't quite understand this. Does this mean he's gonna be a better coach or a better recruiter?
He's gotten 4 five star guys in six years as a P5 head coach. He's gonna do BETTER than that at Illinois? That seems like a stretch to me.
I have a much greater degree of confidence that demonstrated coaching impact will translate than recruiting ability.
Yes it means a better recruiter here. it's a stretch to think a guy who has been a successful recruiter at Cal and Tennessee won't see greater success here? A guy from East St. Louis, who has recruited Chicago, assisted and played at Purdue and coached in Missouri?
Not only is Illinois an easier gig to recruit at than Tennessee and Cal but Martin is very familiar with the talent areas he will need to succeed with.
Hard for me to understand the confusion regarding this.
And that right there is the important part. We need a coach that can do exactly that..coach. I think a big thing here that no one is talking about is the staff that this candidate brings with them. That could really take a candidate to the next level in my opinion. That's what really intrigues me about guys like Musselman.
Beilein following Amaker and Brian Ellerbe at Michigan, Fran following Lickliter and Alford at Iowa, Josh Pastner following Brian Gregory and Paul Hewitt at Georgia Tech, Mark Gottfried following Sidney Lowe and Herb Sendek at NC State, Brad Underwood following Travis Ford and Sean Sutton at Oklahoma State, Mike Anderson following John Pelphrey and Stan Heath at Arkansas.
Those are all pretty analogous situations of programs with resources going on the open market after getting it wrong twice in a row.
Personally, I think Musselman is probably a year away from being a real candidate for us. Think he needs the breakout year at Nevada. Also, he'd certainly be able to up the coaching both at HC and assistant, but would he be able to bring any top level recruiters onto his staff? Any known connections?
Looking over his resume real quick he's been in coaching for quite awhile so I'm sure he's made some good friends along the way. He was on coaching staffs with Doc Rivers, Chuck Daly, Lon Kruger, Herb Sendek, and that's not to mention his own head coaching and administrative jobs.
He has quite the resume. He reminds me of a "Lovie lite" in terms of his connections professionally.
Right, but NBA assistants, etc. aren't what I'm asking about, I have no doubt we'd be able to compile an excellent X's and O's assistant pool using his connections. Where do the lead recruiters come from?
Musselman added Dave Rice, ex-head coach of UNLV, to his staff this offseason. Not a great head coach, but an outstanding recruiter.
He would probably be a contender for the head job if Musselman left, so that's a concern, but that's the current answer for "where do the lead recruiters come from"
Did I mention they're players no freshmen big minutes and we're laying 6 year seniors.
My guess for a future coach might be an middle aged NBA assistant that doesn't see a head coaching job opening up for him in the league and has some good roots and contacts with some P5 schools! Any ideas out there from our resident Experts?
I think the basketball coaching hire will be a much more conventional hire (college coach) than an opportunistic hire (ex-NBA coach or NBA assistant).
The confusion isn't if he can recruit here, just if the level is going to be sufficient to overcome likely coaching deficiencies, because he's recruited some really high level guys to Cal and we haven't seen any really impressive returns on that talent.
More importantly, as stated multiple times, Fran did not make NCAA in four straight years
I guess it depends on what kind of coaching deficiencies we are talking. Are we saying he is Josh Pastner? I think Cuonzo could be a Lou Henson level coach as far as X's and O's.
Martin has playing, recruiting and coaching connections in St. louis metro , Chicago metro and Indiana. I think that makes his ceiling higher than Cal recruiting wise despite the success he has already had.
First, just for accuracy, we have 5 senior scholarship players. Unless you believe we should be winning because Alex Austin is also on the team
Second, playing some freshmen does not mean they are winning or they are projected to be really good in the future. Iowa is not a good team, and maybe you see a bright future, but I see a mediocre team with a mediocre coach (Fran). I think they struggle mightily without Jok next year as well.
More importantly, as stated multiple times, Fran did not make NCAA in four straight years, not even with a multiple injuries excuse. if someone said that missing the tournament 4 years in a row before Fran got marginally better did not matter, it would be hard not to make a similar case for Groce.
Third, I'll be very honest. As bad Groce has been, IF there were only two possible options in this world:
Option A: Not fire Groce this year (does not mean that you can't make a firing decision later)
Option B: Fire Groce this year, but substitute him with someone like Fran, who will not smell NCAA in four years, but will get a little better (Fran/Iowa level) in year 5-6 but then not make the tournament again in year 7.
There is no way you choose option B. Come on, would you think it would be acceptable to hire someone like Fran and give him a pass if he misses the tournament in the next 4 years? Of course not.
Fortunately, Illinois has a lot more options than option B, but Fran is neither an example of successful coach nor what Illinois needs right now. JMO.
His first four years, after taking over a talentless program flat on its back, with steady improvement every season.
Musselman added Dave Rice, ex-head coach of UNLV, to his staff this offseason. Not a great head coach, but an outstanding recruiter.
He would probably be a contender for the head job if Musselman left, so that's a concern, but that's the current answer for "where do the lead recruiters come from"
Stop with the lies. Fran took over a 10-22 team and missed the NCAA tournament 3 years, then made it the 4th year. If the First Four is not part of the NCAA tournament, then what is it? Did I just imagine VCU in the Final Four in 2011? Not saying Fran's a good coach, but you don't need to spin the truth to make that case.
Oh please, Fran did not make the NCAA tournament 4 years in a row. Now, conveniently, we substitute goals like making the tournament with Kenpom numbers. Huh?
This is an incredibly insignificant tangent and I'm not sure how you two went down this road, but PLEASE, general point of contention for me with this thread, facts matter: