2017 Coaching Carousel

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#2,951      
CAHALL15
idoc13 said:
I'm very surprised anyone would view Cuonzo as a "meh" hire. I think he would crush it in recruiting. I don't know if he would win big ten titles right away, but he would definitely right the ship.

Anyone who thinks we get Sean Miller or equivalent is delusional. I'd love to see it but given the state of the program, people need to come back to reality.
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His incoming class is 29th in the country via 247 sports. If he can get MCDAA every year then yes, he would "crush" recruiting, but he obviously can't crush it every year. Additionally, as I have said before, even with a top 3 NBA draft pick, a second MCDAA, and a few solid support players, he still could not get a single tournament win.

I don't believe anyone has talked about Sean Miller here. Some have discussed Archie Miller at Dayton.
 
#2,952      
ILHoff
CAHALL15 said:
His incoming class is 29th in the country via 247 sports. If he can get MCDAA every year then yes, he would "crush" recruiting, but he obviously can't crush it every year. Additionally, as I have said before, even with a top 3 NBA draft pick, a second MCDAA, and a few solid support players, he still could not get a single tournament win.

I don't believe anyone has talked about Sean Miller here. Some have discussed Archie Miller at Dayton.
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Are we judging him based on one game where his starting backcourt was hurt and top 3 draft pick got into foul trouble? Does his Sweet 16 with lesser talent not count?
 
#2,953      
CAHALL15
ILHoff said:
Are we judging him based on one game where his starting backcourt was hurt and top 3 draft pick got into foul trouble? Does his Sweet 16 with lesser talent not count?
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I think Martin would be marginally better than Groce, but not by much. Groce also has a single sweet 16 under his belt that was with lesser talent. Lastly, I'll just say that at this point, I'm looking for results and not for excuses. I want a coach who consistently wins year in and year out.
 
#2,954      
whovous
radiodj said:
Albert Einstein said that if you can't explain something simply enough for others to understand, then you don't know it well enough.
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Ahh. So the reason Albert Einstein never got around to writing Relativity for Dummies is that he just didn't know it well enough.

The McColley article makes complete sense to me. Groce is obviously a bright guy, so why do his players look so lost? Because he is not able to effectively communicate his ideas to his players.

Now, this does precisely nothing to save Groce's job, but it does a lot to help make sense not only of all the difficulties Groce teams have had in recent years, but it also explains why those teams have tended to get better very late (often too late) in the season.
 
#2,955      
LurkLongandProsper
What I find strange, is having read commentary on Groce's "incredible basketball mind", how we've seen nothing to actually support that claim on the court.

Adjustments, success on either end -- nothing. Fundamentals lacking, etc. Where is the on-court evidence to support any of that? Many, including myself, have pointed to how we do essentially nothing well (read: above average) right now. I mean, Purdue game, getting killed by Haas, and he calls to double the guard and not the 7'2 monster of a man? I just don't get it. It's not even a case where Haas is an individual who is a + passer or post player out of the double. I've just seen nothing to really even hint at some extreme level of basketball knowledge.
 
#2,956      
Zedlav
Second and Chalmers said:
So, a couple of NBA options that spring to mind:

Scott Skiles - Big Ten background as a player at Michigan State. He's probably done as an NBA head coach, at least for awhile. He's renowned as a guy who can develop and motivate young players. He's pitch-perfect as an NBA coach who you'd pick to be a college coach, though some of that has to do with him being a bit of a tyrant. You'd like him as the coach, but with his reputation as a tough guy to play for, would he be able to get players?

Monty Williams - Former New Orleans Pelicans Head Coach. He was absolutely beloved there and a great mentor to a young, talented team. They played together and they played hard. He doesn't have any college coaching experience but he definitely profiles as someone players would want to play for. He was chosen as an assistant on the US Olympic Team (Coach K, Boeheim, Thibs and Monty was the staff), so he's definitely someone Jerry Colangelo likes. Smart NBA people weren't in love with his coaching ability with the Hornets, but they've gotten worse with the same roster under Alvin Gentry who everyone loves, so who knows. Played at Notre Dame so there's a Midwest connection.

Lawrence Frank - Former Nets and Pistons head coach who is known as an X's and O's wizard. Was a student manager for Bobby Knight at Indiana and then an assistant to Kevin O'Neill at Marquette and Tennessee before getting into the pro game. Like Skiles, another coaches coach who got a reputation as a bit too much of a tyrant for the pro game. He's moved into the front office with the Clippers now, maybe that's the direction he wants his career to go.
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Has Byron Scott been mentioned? Just listened to an interview here in LA of him talking about about the Lakers and he was asked if he was done coaching. He mentioned that he may be open to coaching at the collegiate level...
 
#2,957      
MadSeason
LurkLongandProsper said:
What I find strange, is having read commentary on Groce's "incredible basketball mind", how we've seen nothing to actually support that claim on the court.

Adjustments, success on either end -- nothing. Fundamentals lacking, etc. Where is the on-court evidence to support any of that? Many, including myself, have pointed to how we do essentially nothing well (read: above average) right now. I mean, Purdue game, getting killed by Haas, and he calls to double the guard and not the 7'2 monster of a man? I just don't get it. It's not even a case where Haas is an individual who is a + passer or post player out of the double. I've just seen nothing to really even hint at some extreme level of basketball knowledge.
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I totally agree. I haven't seen evidence of a basketball savant either. I wonder if some of this narrative exists because he is likable.
 
#2,958      
peace davids
Zedlav said:
Has Byron Scott been mentioned? Just listened to an interview here in LA of him talking about about the Lakers and he was asked if he was done coaching. He mentioned that he may be open to coaching at the collegiate level...
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I brought up Mike Brown - supposedly a defensive expert. Not sure if he has aspirations of doing anything in the collegiate level.
 
#2,959      
haasi
Zedlav said:
Has Byron Scott been mentioned? Just listened to an interview here in LA of him talking about about the Lakers and he was asked if he was done coaching. He mentioned that he may be open to coaching at the collegiate level...
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His last 5 seasons in NBA were atrocious (like 20 wins per year bad), but his teams were also very devoid of talent (Cavs post Lebron Decision and Lakers during rebuilding). Previously he had some really good years with New Orleans w/ CP3 and Nets w/ Kidd (although that relationship broke apart at the end). Never coached at college level but I would certainly entertain the thought of him if he were interested. He certainly has a name brand that could help recruiting as a successful NBA player and one time NBA COTY, and he's reasonably young at 55.
 
#2,960      
FeelYourPaign
I think that this theory that Groce is brilliant, but cannot explain his stuff to the players well enough for them to be effective is interesting. But it does make me wonder.

People mention that we improve late, actually very late in the season. Those go together.
But people also mention that we have lot of experience on this roster, so those guys have had years of Groce teaching, yet they can't get it done. Those don't go together.
Groce press conferences are almost full of platitudes and coach speak, rarely detailed. That doesn't go together.
Players say that Groce is brilliant, such as Sam M. That is reinforcing.

It is interesting and I'm open to that spin, but not yet convinced.
 
#2,961      
ILLINIShox24
FeelYourPaign said:
I think that this theory that Groce is brilliant, but cannot explain his stuff to the players well enough for them to be effective is interesting. But it does make me wonder.

People mention that we improve late, actually very late in the season. Those go together.
But people also mention that we have lot of experience on this roster, so those guys have had years of Groce teaching, yet they can't get it done. Those don't go together.
Groce press conferences are almost full of platitudes and coach speak, rarely detailed. That doesn't go together.
Players say that Groce is brilliant, such as Sam M. That is reinforcing.

It is interesting and I'm open to that spin, but not yet convinced.
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Right there with you.

That said, 5 years is long enough regardless.

Let's give Keatts his shot.
 
#2,962      
MadSeason
FeelYourPaign said:
I think that this theory that Groce is brilliant, but cannot explain his stuff to the players well enough for them to be effective is interesting. But it does make me wonder.

People mention that we improve late, actually very late in the season. Those go together.
But people also mention that we have lot of experience on this roster, so those guys have had years of Groce teaching, yet they can't get it done. Those don't go together.
Groce press conferences are almost full of platitudes and coach speak, rarely detailed. That doesn't go together.
Players say that Groce is brilliant, such as Sam M. That is reinforcing.

It is interesting and I'm open to that spin, but not yet convinced.
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What am I missing on the very late improvement thing? Looks like in the last 10 he was pretty average

Including Post Season last 10

2013 5-5
2014 6-4
2015 4-6
2016 4-6

Regular season last 10

2013 7-3
2014 5-5
2015 6-4
2016 3-7


It is difficult to find a positive way to spin Groce's record here no matter how I stretch it
 
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#2,963      
LurkLongandProsper
Zedlav said:
Has Byron Scott been mentioned? Just listened to an interview here in LA of him talking about about the Lakers and he was asked if he was done coaching. He mentioned that he may be open to coaching at the collegiate level...
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Hhhh, hard pass. I'll roll the dice on cuonzo being the recruiting savant folks think he can be before I roll them on Byron Scott. His players did not like him, and Luke Walton came in this year and showed that roster is far more capable than what Byron got out of it. He was easily one of the 3 worst coaches in the league last year, if not the worst.
 
#2,964      
FeelYourPaign
MadSeason said:
What am I missing on the very late improvement thing? Looks like in the last 10 he was pretty average

2013 5-5
2014 6-4
2015 4-6
2016 4-6

This included post season tourney games
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Always good to have facts, not conjecture.
First, I did say "people say" because I was quoting someone else, but that is lazy, which is an excuse. And this is a no excuses game, lol
Secondly, for JG, 50% in conference is improvement, also lol.
Good info, thanks
 
#2,965      
LurkLongandProsper
FeelYourPaign said:
I think that this theory that Groce is brilliant, but cannot explain his stuff to the players well enough for them to be effective is interesting. But it does make me wonder.

People mention that we improve late, actually very late in the season. Those go together.
But people also mention that we have lot of experience on this roster, so those guys have had years of Groce teaching, yet they can't get it done. Those don't go together.
Groce press conferences are almost full of platitudes and coach speak, rarely detailed. That doesn't go together.
Players say that Groce is brilliant, such as Sam M. That is reinforcing.

It is interesting and I'm open to that spin, but not yet convinced.
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I think the "improve late" thing is really overblown. We're absolutely atrocious in January because we're never prepared for B10 play. February/March rolls around and we finally look competitive/prepared (mentally and physically). I don't really view that as a positive, and even that doesn't hold up that well, see MadSeason's post.
 
#2,966      
MadSeason
FeelYourPaign said:
Always good to have facts, not conjecture.
First, I did say "people say" because I was quoting someone else, but that is lazy, which is an excuse. And this is a no excuses game, lol
Secondly, for JG, 50% in conference is improvement, also lol.
Good info, thanks
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I've always kind of gone along with it as well
 
#2,967      
whovous
MadSeason said:
What am I missing on the very late improvement thing? Looks like in the last 10 he was pretty average

Including Post Season last 10

2013 5-5
2014 6-4
2015 4-6
2016 4-6

Regular season last 10

2013 7-3
2014 5-5
2015 6-4
2016 3-7


It is difficult to find a positive way to spin Groce's record here no matter how I stretch it
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Is this better or worse than the preceding ten games? That is the way to judge if they get better at the end.
 
#2,969      
Obelix
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
This softball is just sitting here, so I'll take it - "pretty average" is indeed an improvement given the usual January record.
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Yes, the start of the B1G season has killed Groce every single year. I had posted the stats in a previous post. We started 2-7 in 2012-13, 2-8 in 2013-14, 2-4 in 2014-15, and 1-5 in 2015-16.

This year, 2-5.

Groce digs a big hole to get out of every single year at the start of B1G play.
 
#2,970      
dmac279
LurkLongandProsper said:
I think the "improve late" thing is really overblown. We're absolutely atrocious in January because we're never prepared for B10 play. February/March rolls around and we finally look competitive/prepared (mentally and physically). I don't really view that as a positive, and even that doesn't hold up that well, see MadSeason's post.
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Then it's too late record not good enough to get in tourney
 
#2,971      
89illinigrad
Obelix said:
Yes, the start of the B1G season has killed Groce every single year. I had posted the stats in a previous post. We started 2-7 in 2012-13, 2-8 in 2013-14, 2-4 in 2014-15, and 1-5 in 2015-16.

This year, 2-5.

Groce digs a big hole to get out of every single year at the start of B1G play.
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How much of this is poor preparation and how much is due to the schedule? I think when the schedule came out for this year everyone looked at it and said the first 7 games would be tough, but that the second half would be easier.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk
 
#2,973      
whovous
While we are all stating the obvious, I'll add that the smartest guy isn't necessarily the best coach.
 
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