Game just completed. Colorado 54-California 46
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Game just completed. Colorado 54-California 46
I no want part of Martin. He's awful. Groce level awful. If we were to hire him we'll be set back another decade.
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Would assume the Cal fans are feeling pretty moody, as well, and wondering why they got let down with their talented squad and coach.
We can take Cuonzo off the list now, right? We already have a coach who can lead us to the NIT.
sacraig
- The desert
Who cares? At the very least it makes it less likely that we will be wooed by some mid-major coach's one-off success in the tournament much like our most recent hire.
foby
- Bonnaroo Land
skyIdub
Winged Warrior
It's pointless to argue anymore. If this team had actually, truly turned the corner on the little streak, they would have easily dismantled that RU team.
Period.
It's time to reset. It's like we are the old lady at the slots thinking "this next one will be it".....no it won't. This program is, and has been, in disarray.
Kudos to Groce for pulling of a couple of good recruiting gets this last year, but it's not enough. This year is proof enough. Do any of you really think there is a player better than MH on this team over the next four years? I don't. Maybe Tilmon will be dynamite for a year or two. We should have been top 5 in this league this year. We lost to Winthrop. We lost to Rutgers. We lost to Penn St.
All the best to JG, but the cops just pulled up and the party is busted.
Next.
Period.
It's time to reset. It's like we are the old lady at the slots thinking "this next one will be it".....no it won't. This program is, and has been, in disarray.
Kudos to Groce for pulling of a couple of good recruiting gets this last year, but it's not enough. This year is proof enough. Do any of you really think there is a player better than MH on this team over the next four years? I don't. Maybe Tilmon will be dynamite for a year or two. We should have been top 5 in this league this year. We lost to Winthrop. We lost to Rutgers. We lost to Penn St.
All the best to JG, but the cops just pulled up and the party is busted.
Next.
Okay, have we finally seen the last of Groce? Will this be the forth consecutive year the Illini have missed the NCAA Tourney? I cannot remember the last time that happened if ever. We've come to expect extended years (decades perhaps) of mediocrity from the football program but basketball was always different. Let's spend some real cash and get a coach with a vision who can recruit Chicago.
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I'll try to start doing this for all identified candidates over the next two weeks:
Cuonzo Martin
-Runs a Keady-derived motion offense. It's philosophically pretty much the same from Hank Iba to Eddie Sutton to Keady to Weber/Painter/Cuonzo/et al: lots of screens, cutting, baseline action, perimeter passing. Turn down good shots to get great shots. Emphasis on patience and unselfishness. Cuonzo's guards seem to attack the basket more than Weber's (maybe a little space-it-out, Coach K-style motion influence). Nonetheless, if you have guys with low basketball IQs who aren't great shooters or passers, the motion offense looks like absolute garbage.
It's like free jazz: lots of room for interpretation and improv, works really well with great players, but with a room full of amateurs it's just noise. The ball screen offense run by Groce/Calipari/most NBA teams offers a little more margin for error. With Groce's offense (theoretically), if you have a lead guard that can collapse a defense off the bounce and hit pull-up threes, the offense looks decent. (We've never really had that, so...well, I guess that's why we're here in this thread.) With a Keady motion O, if you don't have five guys moving, screening, cutting, and making crisp passes, it gunks up. Then you lose games 38-33 (or 74-44 like Cal did the other day to Utah).
This year, Cal is #299 in adjusted tempo. They are a slow, methodical team offensively. It isn't generally fun to watch (one of Oizo's questions). We all saw how much fun it can be in 2004-05, but you usually don't have a team full of unselfish, ultra-skilled future pros.
-On defense, Cuonzo runs an aggressive man-to-man scheme with zone principles. This essentially just means that 1) you sink toward the basket when your man is two passes away on the perimeter, 2) everyone collapses on the paint when there's penetration (ready to fan back out - this is largely to prevent easy dump-offs and offensive rebounds), and 3) you communicate and help efficiently. It's pretty normal stuff - similar to Weber and frankly not too different from Groce's base pack-line in terms of philosophy. As far as I know, Cuonzo doesn't ever switch to a pure zone (outside of one specific time where he did it out of desperation at Missouri State and then explained in his post-game interview, "we don't even practice zone defense"). He's a man-to-man purist.
-Cuonzo's calling cards are hustle, defense, and physicality. He's had so-so results playing a grinding Big Ten style in the Pac-12. I think his philosophy would fit better in the B1G. If he ended up here, the one thing I'd feel confident about is consistent effort and hustle.
-From listening to interviews and reading columns, he seems well-liked and is pretty charismatic in an earnest sort of way. Personality-wise, I think he'd do well here. His former players and various people in the basketball community have nice things to say about him.
-My overall opinion is this: I think Cuonzo would do fine here. I don't know that he's a better coach than Groce, frankly, but I think he might have marginally more success recruiting and therefore more success generally. He doesn't blow me away. Doesn't seem like an extraordinary tactician or anything. I'll admit that I have a bias against the methodical version of motion that Cuonzo runs - I think it's boring and frustrating to watch unless you have multiple dynamic playmakers on the floor. That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to his hiring. I'd rather take a shot on Monty Williams or Kevin Keatts, though.
Cuonzo Martin
-Runs a Keady-derived motion offense. It's philosophically pretty much the same from Hank Iba to Eddie Sutton to Keady to Weber/Painter/Cuonzo/et al: lots of screens, cutting, baseline action, perimeter passing. Turn down good shots to get great shots. Emphasis on patience and unselfishness. Cuonzo's guards seem to attack the basket more than Weber's (maybe a little space-it-out, Coach K-style motion influence). Nonetheless, if you have guys with low basketball IQs who aren't great shooters or passers, the motion offense looks like absolute garbage.
It's like free jazz: lots of room for interpretation and improv, works really well with great players, but with a room full of amateurs it's just noise. The ball screen offense run by Groce/Calipari/most NBA teams offers a little more margin for error. With Groce's offense (theoretically), if you have a lead guard that can collapse a defense off the bounce and hit pull-up threes, the offense looks decent. (We've never really had that, so...well, I guess that's why we're here in this thread.) With a Keady motion O, if you don't have five guys moving, screening, cutting, and making crisp passes, it gunks up. Then you lose games 38-33 (or 74-44 like Cal did the other day to Utah).
This year, Cal is #299 in adjusted tempo. They are a slow, methodical team offensively. It isn't generally fun to watch (one of Oizo's questions). We all saw how much fun it can be in 2004-05, but you usually don't have a team full of unselfish, ultra-skilled future pros.
-On defense, Cuonzo runs an aggressive man-to-man scheme with zone principles. This essentially just means that 1) you sink toward the basket when your man is two passes away on the perimeter, 2) everyone collapses on the paint when there's penetration (ready to fan back out - this is largely to prevent easy dump-offs and offensive rebounds), and 3) you communicate and help efficiently. It's pretty normal stuff - similar to Weber and frankly not too different from Groce's base pack-line in terms of philosophy. As far as I know, Cuonzo doesn't ever switch to a pure zone (outside of one specific time where he did it out of desperation at Missouri State and then explained in his post-game interview, "we don't even practice zone defense"). He's a man-to-man purist.
-Cuonzo's calling cards are hustle, defense, and physicality. He's had so-so results playing a grinding Big Ten style in the Pac-12. I think his philosophy would fit better in the B1G. If he ended up here, the one thing I'd feel confident about is consistent effort and hustle.
-From listening to interviews and reading columns, he seems well-liked and is pretty charismatic in an earnest sort of way. Personality-wise, I think he'd do well here. His former players and various people in the basketball community have nice things to say about him.
-My overall opinion is this: I think Cuonzo would do fine here. I don't know that he's a better coach than Groce, frankly, but I think he might have marginally more success recruiting and therefore more success generally. He doesn't blow me away. Doesn't seem like an extraordinary tactician or anything. I'll admit that I have a bias against the methodical version of motion that Cuonzo runs - I think it's boring and frustrating to watch unless you have multiple dynamic playmakers on the floor. That said, I'm not necessarily opposed to his hiring. I'd rather take a shot on Monty Williams or Kevin Keatts, though.
SMU blowing out Memphis with 14 assists on 16 made baskets. Just sayin' ...
Jank?
Worse than Groce imo. Only year he has done well is with Larry Brown recruits. The rest of his career is less than inspiring
Larry Krystkowiak doesn't get enough mentions.
TC...is your Pheonix reference Dan Majerle? I'm all for that as well. I know he's tied to Pheonix, but double his pay to $3.0mm plus increases, maybe?
Monte Williams.
I like guys who have demonstrated an ability to compete at the highest level, know what it takes to get kids to the show. That's what the recruits we are interested in want to hear.
If that type of hire doesn't pan out, Keats is my man.
If Cuonzo is the best we can do, I would rather roll the dice w/ Groce. I don't think he upgrades the coaching, and Groce sits well with this class and next couple. It's not what I want, but I wouldn't hire Martin.
TC...is your Pheonix reference Dan Majerle? I'm all for that as well. I know he's tied to Pheonix, but double his pay to $3.0mm plus increases, maybe?
Monte Williams.
I like guys who have demonstrated an ability to compete at the highest level, know what it takes to get kids to the show. That's what the recruits we are interested in want to hear.
If that type of hire doesn't pan out, Keats is my man.
If Cuonzo is the best we can do, I would rather roll the dice w/ Groce. I don't think he upgrades the coaching, and Groce sits well with this class and next couple. It's not what I want, but I wouldn't hire Martin.
It's pointless to argue anymore. If this team had actually, truly turned the corner on the little streak, they would have easily dismantled that RU team.
Period.
It's time to reset. It's like we are the old lady at the slots thinking "this next one will be it".....no it won't. This program is, and has been, in disarray.
Kudos to Groce for pulling of a couple of good recruiting gets this last year, but it's not enough. This year is proof enough. Do any of you really think there is a player better than MH on this team over the next four years? I don't. Maybe Tilmon will be dynamite for a year or two. We should have been top 5 in this league this year. We lost to Winthrop. We lost to Rutgers. We lost to Penn St.
All the best to JG, but the cops just pulled up and the party is busted.
Next.
During Izzo's post game on Wednesday he said that Illinois is a top 4 Big Ten team this year in excusing his teams loss. He was clearly pissed and it was clear he thought he out coached us, and that his players lost that game. He mentioned they new exactly what play we were running on the inbounds that we hit the quick three on.
This staff just can't cut it. I have to assume they gave it their best effort. Competency just isn't there.
No, just aggravated and disappointed
Aren't we all. But have faith - there is not really a justification for not making a change. If we won today, but missed the tourney, perhaps. But not with the losses we now have.
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I agree. I have said it before. He will return.
Do you people really believe this or are you just strapping on your recruiting cup?
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skyIdub
Winged Warrior
JW will lose a truckload of the respect he garnered after the Lovie hire if he doesn't make a change.
The state of Illinois basketball is not going to recover from the last five years with Groce remaining and one good incoming class.
Hope and wishes, if's and but's, candy and nuts.
The state of Illinois basketball is not going to recover from the last five years with Groce remaining and one good incoming class.
Hope and wishes, if's and but's, candy and nuts.
Been giving it some, a lot, of thought.
Looking at next year's team, there are the breakout juniors, and I'm going to assume everyone comes back. Then there is the sophs class, and we can see their potential, and finally the incoming 4, hopefully 5, frosh to take a beating from the upper classmen. Also, this now core group will be together not 1 but 2 years. I'm sure an a-ha moment will occur to them that they have something special going on for these next two years.
But then it occurred to me that since Josh is an alumnus, I was curious as to how closely he followed his alma mater teams from far away, since I'm sure he knew that at some point he was going to have a chance to be its AD at some point in his AD career.
So let's go back to the Thomas hire and then his hires, Beckman and Groce. Following Beckman's, then Cubit's effort, and Josh being a football guy, I'm sure he thought that they would need to go sooner rather than later. And sure enough, that's what happened. Following Groce's path, which we have all been doing these past 5 years, my guess, even though Groce is not his hire, that Groce has been through some interesting times and next year it looks like the program will finally be on stable ground with all of his recruits. No more "island of misfit toys" to babysit anymore.
And so, that's why I believe he will be back next year.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it, until proven wrong by Josh, and no one else.
illini80
- Forgottonia
I'm not in favor of it at all. But I don't think this is a done deal. I think JW really likes Groce and is looking for reasons to keep him. I think winning a couple games in the BTT keeps him. Hope I'm wrong.
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MrOizo
- Chicago
Thanks a lot for humoring me. That was a great read. Thanks for taking me back to things like "38-33". You're helping me to appropriately place the Keady system in my hierarchy of offenses. After years of Groce, I was yearning for it more than I realized. But in reality, the Keady-family motion is really flawed. I prefer Cuonzo to the present, but I'm much more interested in seeing something else. Cheers~
MrOizo
- Chicago
Thanks, fantastic thoughts! Appreciate you sharing them and tend to agree. Reading up on Krystkowiak...
Honestly, I just don't think he's getting fired. I've been saying it and it makes me angry, but I don't think Whitman pulls it off. Our program is going to be this way for the next few years at least.... I'm preparing for it
If he isn't fired the outcry will be enormous. And ticket sales will be bad next year.
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MrOizo
- Chicago
To me, this is a disaster that will hurt Whitman. I think he knows it. I think he's been pulling for Groce and that's great. If this team made the tourney, he would have had his valid reason. I wish they made it, but they didn't. Whitman has to make the move or lose lots of supporters IMO.
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