Watch Underwood make the tourney next year and everyone lose their minds.
If that happens, many will become worried about how we will be able to keep BU from taking the Duke job when Coach K retires...
Watch Underwood make the tourney next year and everyone lose their minds.
Besides Ayo I'm not impressed by the replacements
Underwood had concerns about our team culture the entire year. Multiple articles were written about it. This is just one of them. I wouldn't blame this issue on any one player. It's hard to change culture. On occasion, drastic measures are necessary to even have a chance.
When you have become totally irrelevant in college basketball it is very easy to say that a Illinois has a culture or perception problem but this is coach speak and has little to do with individual players. As much as disliked Weber, it is not that Weber or Groce were not tough or demanding on players or liked to recruit players who were soft.
Many Weber players were very tough on the court, Frazier, Mike Davis, Paul, etc. and some of the Groce players as well, Ray Rice, Nunn, and definitely Black (to the point of excess, picking up fouls). Problem is that neither coach was able to get the talent at B1G level, our talent level independent of rankings has been sub-par sans one year (2010-11).
Did BU like to recruit non-culture players? Was Matic a culture match? Wasn't Mark Smith the player who BU praised so much AFTER he arrived at UI for his work ethic and toughness, wasn't he the best freshman he had seen in that respect?
When you lose, the easy target is the culture, chemistry, etc. diverting attention from your own faults. People argued with me ad-nauseam before the season that a good coach like BU would make the tournament, it was coaching, not talent for many. Before the EIU game more than 75% of the fans voted that they thought we were making the tournament and more than 95% that we were making at least the NIT. Yet, analysts did not think so. And while I blame talent level mainly, that was definitely not a good coaching job by BU. We ended up even below projections.
At the end, it is not the players' fault. Unless we get the needed talent, it would be very hard to consistently bounce back and we will keep trying to find excuses, culture, lack of chemistry, etc. I like BU but his success/failure will depend on seriously elevating the talent on this team, more than the "culture" shortcomings of players like TJL, Finke, or Mark Smith.
No, I honestly don't wonder that. I think all he has done is told these coaches that they have a fairly long leash and are free to play the long game and make it a full rebuild if they deem it necessary, and both have now deemed it necessary.
I'd be surprised if Whitman was the micromanaging type like that.
When you have become totally irrelevant in college basketball it is very easy to say that a Illinois has a culture or perception problem but this is coach speak and has little to do with individual players. As much as disliked Weber, it is not that Weber or Groce were not tough or demanding on players or liked to recruit players who were soft.
Many Weber players were very tough on the court, Frazier, Mike Davis, Paul, etc. and some of the Groce players as well, Ray Rice, Nunn, and definitely Black (to the point of excess, picking up fouls). Problem is that neither coach was able to get the talent at B1G level, our talent level independent of rankings has been sub-par sans one year (2010-11).
Did BU like to recruit non-culture players? Was Matic a culture match? Wasn't Mark Smith the player who BU praised so much AFTER he arrived at UI for his work ethic and toughness, wasn't he the best freshman he had seen in that respect?
When you lose, the easy target is the culture, chemistry, etc. diverting attention from your own faults. People argued with me ad-nauseam before the season that a good coach like BU would make the tournament, it was coaching, not talent for many. Before the EIU game more than 75% of the fans voted that they thought we were making the tournament and more than 95% that we were making at least the NIT. Yet, analysts did not think so. And while I blame talent level mainly, that was definitely not a good coaching job by BU. We ended up even below projections.
At the end, it is not the players' fault. Unless we get the needed talent, it would be very hard to consistently bounce back and we will keep trying to find excuses, culture, lack of chemistry, etc. I like BU but his success/failure will depend on seriously elevating the talent on this team, more than the "culture" shortcomings of players like TJL, Finke, or Mark Smith.
When you have become totally irrelevant in college basketball it is very easy to say that a Illinois has a culture or perception problem but this is coach speak and has little to do with individual players. As much as disliked Weber, it is not that Weber or Groce were not tough or demanding on players or liked to recruit players who were soft.
Many Weber players were very tough on the court, Frazier, Mike Davis, Paul, etc. and some of the Groce players as well, Ray Rice, Nunn, and definitely Black (to the point of excess, picking up fouls). Problem is that neither coach was able to get the talent at B1G level, our talent level independent of rankings has been sub-par sans one year (2010-11).
Did BU like to recruit non-culture players? Was Matic a culture match? Wasn't Mark Smith the player who BU praised so much AFTER he arrived at UI for his work ethic and toughness, wasn't he the best freshman he had seen in that respect?
When you lose, the easy target is the culture, chemistry, etc. diverting attention from your own faults. People argued with me ad-nauseam before the season that a good coach like BU would make the tournament, it was coaching, not talent for many. Before the EIU game more than 75% of the fans voted that they thought we were making the tournament and more than 95% that we were making at least the NIT. Yet, analysts did not think so. And while I blame talent level mainly, that was definitely not a good coaching job by BU. We ended up even below projections.
At the end, it is not the players' fault. Unless we get the needed talent, it would be very hard to consistently bounce back and we will keep trying to find excuses, culture, lack of chemistry, etc. I like BU but his success/failure will depend on seriously elevating the talent on this team, more than the "culture" shortcomings of players like TJL, Finke, or Mark Smith.
Loyola is doing fine with what I would assume many would consider sub par talent. In a couple of years Underwood will have a team of players he recruited for his style of play. If he isn't able to make them go, then we can have this discussion.
I'd bet one lung and both kidneys that won't happen.
I think you're conflating a whole bunch of things here. "Culture" "toughness" "perception" "chemistry" those are all very different things.
I think the notion that we will consistently outsystem and outcoach the Izzo's, the Beilein's, the Painter's, the Turgeon's and the rest of the top programs in the B1G with sub-par talent based on "culture", "chemistry", etc. is just hogwash. JMO.
THAT is reality, naming two uncommitted 16 year olds as the sole determinant of your coaches' future over and over and over again is fantasyland.
Would prefer your beach house...
not significantly improving the talent level
He did have a player who tied his roommate up and burned him with cigarettes. But what coach hasn’t.
And Art Long was found not guilty of punching that police horse.
But I just don't know how you can be an Illini fan the past 15 years and still cling to the idea that college basketball is largely single-factor determined according to talent levels. I was on your side of this once, but everything I have seen here and nationally points me in a different direction.
That is something no one is proposing.
One of the most frustrating things from the past few years is that the lack of athleticism which made it a pretty boring brand of basketball under Groce. I'm sure I'm forgetting a player or two, but it seemed like the only above average d1 athlete we had was Nunn. Even when we played cupcakes, we seemed to be outmatched physically despite Fletcher's effort to make below average athletes look menacing. We've lost a lot in the past decade but my concern wasn't with the lack of talent when it came to stars and rankings but the terrible blend of athleticism and skill.Culture, toughness, system are just other ways of saying that since 2006 we haven't had good enough coaches or talent to be consistently good.
I agree that the AD Whitman is giving out a long leash, but wouldn't you in his role...turn the ILLINI around guys YOUR WAY, YOUR PLAYERS< YOUR PLAN, I will vet the process with you, but at the end of the day...your call.
If it doesn't come to fruition, then Whitman has some easy decisions to make..
Per Sinatra, You did it your way, it didn't work out, see ya!
I think any AD wants their input taken seriously, but the coaches are on the line ultimately and they cant be hand held.
One of the most frustrating things from the past few years is that the lack of athleticism which made it a pretty boring brand of basketball under Groce. I'm sure I'm forgetting a player or two, but it seemed like the only above average d1 athlete we had was Nunn. Even when we played cupcakes, we seemed to be outmatched physically despite Fletcher's effort to make below average athletes look menacing. We've lost a lot in the past decade but my concern wasn't with the lack of talent when it came to stars and rankings but the terrible blend of athleticism and skill.
One of the most frustrating things from the past few years is that the lack of athleticism which made it a pretty boring brand of basketball under Groce. I'm sure I'm forgetting a player or two, but it seemed like the only above average d1 athlete we had was Nunn. Even when we played cupcakes, we seemed to be outmatched physically despite Fletcher's effort to make below average athletes look menacing. We've lost a lot in the past decade but my concern wasn't with the lack of talent when it came to stars and rankings but the terrible blend of athleticism and skill.
Even when we played cupcakes, we seemed to be outmatched physically despite Fletcher's effort to make below average athletes look menacing.