2018 St. Louis Cardinals

hermie1985 · Mar 9, 2018

FollowTisdale said:
So Mikolas just threw 4 scoreless against the vaunted Astros, does this mean he’s locked in for a Cy Young award? Or... spring training doesn’t matter.

I agree with you. He's NOT proven just like most of our rotation. That was my point. Our rotation is loaded with question marks. I would have liked a known commodity beyond Carlos Martinez.

You are dyed in the wool for sure. You take my doubts and just pound me for them. Chill. I'm hoping this all works out but have grown tired of the "we got money to spend" mantra when that is not the business model.

the national · Mar 9, 2018

hermie1985 said:
I agree with you. He's NOT proven just like most of our rotation. That was my point. Our rotation is loaded with question marks. I would have liked a known commodity beyond Carlos Martinez.

You are dyed in the wool for sure. You take my doubts and just pound me for them. Chill. I'm hoping this all works out but have grown tired of the "we got money to spend" mantra when that is not the business model.

I’m kinda in your camp on this. I would feel a lot more comfortable with this season if we had one proven help every 5th day. I know we are young and hungry but as a fan, I’d like at least one more anchor in the rotation. It seems like Mo has a lid on the coin jar. He never wants to spend.

As a side note, havin McGee, Maddox and Jose Oquendo really helps me feel better about Matheny as a manager. We sorely missed that kinda of help managing the team last year.

FollowTisdale · Mar 10, 2018

hermie1985 said:
I agree with you. He's NOT proven just like most of our rotation. That was my point. Our rotation is loaded with question marks. I would have liked a known commodity beyond Carlos Martinez.

You are dyed in the wool for sure. You take my doubts and just pound me for them. Chill. I'm hoping this all works out but have grown tired of the "we got money to spend" mantra when that is not the business model.

Well I was mostly just rallying against the feeling that anything that happens in spring training really matters, other than injuries. The sample sizes are too small; Mikolas could throw 4 scoreless or 4 innings with 10 runs, it really doesn’t tell us much about how he’ll do this year.

But what does “proven starter” really mean? I assume you want somebody like Lynn, who has proven to throw 180 basically average innings year after year. But doesn’t it make much more sense to have 7 starters who project to be better than Lynn, especially when 3 of them are on the minimum? How do starters like Reyes and Flaherty ever get to be “proven starters” if their innings get taken by somebody like Lynn or Cobb?

It would make sense to trade for Archer, but that’s pretty much it.

IlliniFaninHoosierLand · Mar 10, 2018

Former Cardinal Lance Lynn signs a one year deal with the Twins.

orangeroses07 · Mar 26, 2018

This is what the Opening Day roster will look like, after learning that Adam Wainwright and Luke Gregerson will join Alex Reyes on the DL to start the season.

PITCHERS (13)

(rotation)

Carlos Martinez, RHP

Miles Mikolas, RHP

Michael Wacha, RHP

Luke Weaver, RHP

Jack Flaherty, RHP

(bullpen)

Dominic Leone RHP

Tyler Lyons LHP

Brett Cecil, LHP

Matt Bowman, RHP

Sam Tuivailala, RHP

Bud Norris, RHP

John Brebbia, RHP

Mike Mayers, RHP

CATCHERS (2)

Yadier Molina

Francisco Pena

INFIELD (7)

Matt Carpenter, 1B

Kolten Wong, 2B

Paul DeJong, SS

Jedd Gyorko, 3B

Greg Garcia, INF

Jose Martinez, INF/OF

Yairo Munoz, INF/OF

OUTFIELD (3)

Marcell Ozuna, LF

Tommy Pham, CF

Dexter Fowler, RF

Interesting that they have decided to keep both Greg Garcia and Yario Munoz as utility IFers and no true 4th OFer.

Vegas has set the over/under for wins at 85.5

Bring on the season!

Deleted member 3875 · Mar 26, 2018

hermie1985 said:
I'm not writing off anyone. My argument is that our staff is a big gamble by Mo and not just the 5 slot. Almost everyone besides Carlos is a question mark.

Mo does have Reyes to fall back on as a starter and a closer. He's got to be great.

Moz and Dewitt needed to spend the $$ and sign more pitching depth. Going to kill us for another season.

champaignchris · Mar 26, 2018

carmelillini said:
Moz and Dewitt needed to spend the $$ and sign more pitching depth. Going to kill us for another season.

Fun fact. The Cardinals spent less in guaranteed free agent dollars this year than all but 7 other MLB teams. (Pirates, Braves, Marlins, Dodgers, Rays, Reds, Tigers.)

The Cards spent less than the White Sox, Royals, and A's. Even if you add in the $9M remaining on Ozuna's contract (but then to be fair, we'd have to deduct the $32M they saved in dumping Piscotty...), the Twins spent more than twice as much money as the Cardinals did.

orangeroses07 · Mar 26, 2018

champaignchris said:
Fun fact. The Cardinals spent less in guaranteed free agent dollars this year than all but 7 other MLB teams. (Pirates, Braves, Marlins, Dodgers, Rays, Reds, Tigers.)

The Cards spent less than the White Sox, Royals, and A's. Even if you add in the $9M remaining on Ozuna's contract (but then to be fair, we'd have to deduct the $32M they saved in dumping Piscotty...), the Twins spent more than twice as much money as the Cardinals did.

This is frustrating for sure. Greg Holland is still available via Free Agency, and they're content with Bud freaking Norris and Mike Mayers in the pen. Their priority seems to be on the next phase of Ballpark Village as opposed to the product on the field.

TheGMan · Mar 26, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
This is frustrating for sure. Greg Holland is still available via Free Agency, and they're content with Bud freaking Norris and Mike Mayers in the pen. Their priority seems to be on the next phase of Ballpark Village as opposed to the product on the field.

Or Greg Holland is still holding out for a bigger contract that the Cardinals are not willing to spend for an older relief pitcher. I mean, the fact that he still hasn't signed with anyone would probably be evidence that he is still waiting for a bigger deal that no one is willing to pay right now.

champaignchris · Mar 26, 2018

Not a Cardinals fan, but I don’t think I’d want my team spending a ton on Greg Holland and then having him pitch in key situations.

He was as good as a reliever could get from 2011-2014. But that’s starting to be a long time ago. He lost the closer spot in 2015, got hurt, and didn’t even make a playoff appearance for the Royals WS winning team. Was hurt all of 2016. And was masterful for about 40 innings in 2017 before completely falling apart over the last third of the season.

He hadn’t been effective for more than 40 innings in a season for a while now. As a cheap flyer, sure, give a few million on a short, incentive laden contract. But throwing Jansen, Chapman, Wade Davis money at him would be crazy.

champaignchris · Mar 26, 2018

For what it’s worth, next year’s free agent class will be filthy with relievers - Andrew Miller, Craig Kimbrell, Zach Britten (should be back from Achilles in June), Cody Allen, Brad Brach, Kelvin Herrera (curious to see if he has a bounce back year), probably Sean Doolittle (doubt Nats pick up the option - need all the $ they can get to re-sign Harper), among others.

FollowTisdale · Mar 26, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
This is frustrating for sure. Greg Holland is still available via Free Agency, and they're content with Bud freaking Norris and Mike Mayers in the pen. Their priority seems to be on the next phase of Ballpark Village as opposed to the product on the field.

Mike Mayers may be good (he's young and added a pitch) and if Norris isn't any good, he'll be cut by end of May.

Greg Holland is not that good, there's a reason he's not on a team right now. Forget what he was before Tommy John surgery in 2016, that pitcher is gone. He was mediocre in Denver last year but racked up the saves, which really doesn't mean much other than he could hold 3 run leads.

There's really not much to upgrade on this team, outside of a huge 5 win guy like Donaldson or Archer. When you have good, young pitchers like Flaherty, Weaver and Reyes, at some point you have to let them pitch and not sign mediocre 30+ year old free agents to block them.

The Cardinals have a 67.5% playoff odds on Fangraphs right now, which is 4th highest in the NL (and 5 teams make it). Everyone needs to cool their jets, the Cardinals are fine and so much flexibility to address needs in season if need be.

orangeroses07 · Mar 27, 2018

Fine, maybe Greg Holland wasn't the correct example to use to get my point across. Point is, the Cardinals talk a big game heading into every off season claiming they're ready to make big moves and they disappointed again IMO.

Forgive me for not being thrilled with the signings of Luke Greggerson, Miles Mikolas, and Bud Norris. To be fair, they deserve credit for making the Ozuna move and the Piscotty/Grichuk trades might work in their favor, too.

This team could still be good enough to make the postseason if the young pitchers hold up over 162, but I have my doubts. Hope I'm wrong.

FollowTisdale · Mar 27, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
Fine, maybe Greg Holland wasn't the correct example to use to get my point across. Point is, the Cardinals talk a big game heading into every off season claiming they're ready to make big moves and they disappointed again IMO.

Forgive me for not being thrilled with the signings of Luke Greggerson, Miles Mikolas, and Bud Norris. To be fair, they deserve credit for making the Ozuna move and the Piscotty/Grichuk trades might work in their favor, too.

This team could still be good enough to make the postseason if the young pitchers hold up over 162, but I have my doubts. Hope I'm wrong.

I don't really understand what you wanted them to do though? They had a trade finalized for one of the best hitters in baseball that was apparently impossible to finalize (Stanton) so they traded for the 2nd best player traded this winter (Ozuna).

The free agent class this year was trash. JD Martinez was probably the best player and he needed to be a DH yesterday. Darvish and Arrieta were the only pitchers better than the starting staff right now and they both had huge question marks around them. Spending money just to spend it is how you turn into the Tigers or Giants; old, expensive, and bad. Especially when you have a top 10 or better farm system in baseball, they're using that to their advantage.

orangeroses07 · Mar 27, 2018

FollowTisdale said:
I don't really understand what you wanted them to do though? They had a trade finalized for one of the best hitters in baseball that was apparently impossible to finalize (Stanton) so they traded for the 2nd best player traded this winter (Ozuna).

The free agent class this year was trash. JD Martinez was probably the best player and he needed to be a DH yesterday. Darvish and Arrieta were the only pitchers better than the starting staff right now and they both had huge question marks around them. Spending money just to spend it is how you turn into the Tigers or Giants; old, expensive, and bad. Especially when you have a top 10 or better farm system in baseball, they're using that to their advantage.

Would you not rather have a more sure thing in Arrieta, Darvish, Lynn, Cobb over Mikolas?

Would you not rather have a Wade Davis, Brandon Morrow, Addison Reed, Juan Nicasio at the back end of the pen over Luke Greggerson?

My point is the Cardinals talk a big game like they're ready to spend on top free agents and they really failed to do so, and in my opinion the team may struggle this season because of it.

I'll shut my mouth if they were to sign a Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Britton in next year's FA class. They apparently have upwards of $290M to spend (Stanton's contract).

FollowTisdale · Mar 27, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
Would you not rather have a more sure thing in Arrieta, Darvish, Lynn, Cobb over Mikolas?

Would you not rather have a Wade Davis, Brandon Morrow, Addison Reed, Juan Nicasio at the back end of the pen over Luke Greggerson?

My point is the Cardinals talk a big game like they're ready to spend on top free agents and they really failed to do so, and in my opinion the team may struggle this season because of it.

I'll shut my mouth if they were to sign a Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Britton in next year's FA class. They apparently have upwards of $290M to spend (Stanton's contract).

Mikolas is better than Lynn. Reyes and Flaherty are good bets to be better than Cobb, which is who they'd have been blocking by signing him to multiple years. Arrieta is pretty far away from a sure thing, he lost a mile and a half off his velocity last year. Same thing with Darvish, they didn't have the incentive to commit those last 1-2 dead years to Darvish because they have good young in house options; the complete opposite of the Cubs.

I think Addison Reed was the only one that I would have preferred, based on contract, for the bullpen. I'll trust their scouting for Nicasio. Big money for relievers never seems to work out, unless their the Kenley Jensen or Kimbrel level. Wade Davis took a big step back last year and Morrow is going to be 34. I'm much more on board for the "get a bunch of young guys who throw hard and rotate them through" combined with 1 or 2 outside guys for a bullpen composition. The Cardinals have so much young pitching talent, they'll be able to field a competent bullpen without having to overpay > 30 year olds.

The Cardinals always end up looking like the smart team on big free agent contracts. Would winning those bidding wars for Pujols, Heyward, David Price really have been a good thing? I think they have earned trust.

TheGMan · Mar 27, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
Would you not rather have a more sure thing in Arrieta, Darvish, Lynn, Cobb over Mikolas?

Would you not rather have a Wade Davis, Brandon Morrow, Addison Reed, Juan Nicasio at the back end of the pen over Luke Greggerson?

My point is the Cardinals talk a big game like they're ready to spend on top free agents and they really failed to do so, and in my opinion the team may struggle this season because of it.

I'll shut my mouth if they were to sign a Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Britton in next year's FA class. They apparently have upwards of $290M to spend (Stanton's contract).

I don't 100% disagree with you, but I think this was just a bad year to go big in free agency. At the beginning of the offseason, most people assumed that Arrieta, Darvish, and Lynn were gonna get longterm deals, which they were wisely not willing to offer. So they went out to get Mikolas. By the time it was obvious that those guys offers were not gonna be as much as everyone thought, it was almost too late.

But yes, I do agree that they need to not just talk the talk next year, but walk the walk. I think they have been willing to spend big, but have gotten unlucky (ex: David Price and Stanton). I do like that when big spending plan A doesn't work, they don't just spend big to spend big on some of the other guys.

jrichisamazing · Mar 27, 2018

orangeroses07 said:
Would you not rather have a more sure thing in Arrieta, Darvish, Lynn, Cobb over Mikolas?

Would you not rather have a Wade Davis, Brandon Morrow, Addison Reed, Juan Nicasio at the back end of the pen over Luke Greggerson?

My point is the Cardinals talk a big game like they're ready to spend on top free agents and they really failed to do so, and in my opinion the team may struggle this season because of it.

I'll shut my mouth if they were to sign a Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Britton in next year's FA class. They apparently have upwards of $290M to spend (Stanton's contract).

https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-lou...er-lyons-alex-reyes-jack-flaherty-brett-cecil

As far as relievers go...this is an interesting article. Long story short, relievers (especially closers) are ridiculously expensive right now. And the majority of those dynamite closers will only be dynamite for a short period of time, before crashing and crashing hard.

IlliniFaninHoosierLand · Mar 27, 2018

Young flamethrower Jordan Hicks has been added to the active roster with John Brebbia being optioned to AAA. To make room for Hicks and backup catcher Francisco Pena on the 40-man roster, the Cardinals are going to need to make two corresponding moves. They intend to designate a player for assignment and not place Alex Reyes on the 60-day disabled list because doing that would push Reyes' return back to May 28, at the earliest. The Cardinals are expecting him in the majors several weeks before that.

FollowTisdale · Mar 28, 2018

jrichisamazing said:
https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-lou...er-lyons-alex-reyes-jack-flaherty-brett-cecil

As far as relievers go...this is an interesting article. Long story short, relievers (especially closers) are ridiculously expensive right now. And the majority of those dynamite closers will only be dynamite for a short period of time, before crashing and crashing hard.

Exactly. Paying money for relievers is dumb, especially when you can do what the Cardinals just did; bring up your stud prospect who can hit 102 and has a nasty sinker.

As far as free agents go, I'd be very surprised if the Cardinals don't get Donaldson next off season, if not trade for him if the Blue Jays falter this year. They have boatloads of OF prospects, so doubt they'll dip into the Harper race. Machado has a Heyward feeling to him; I'd hate to be the one to overpay for him, plus they have Wong and DeJong locked up. Donaldson has been their boy for awhile, they tried hard this off season for a trade.

FollowTisdale · Mar 29, 2018

After I've harped on it, of course Jon Heyman is reporting the Cardinals are closing in on a deal for Holland. Shows what I know.

I guess it completely depends on the $$. If they're able to get him for less years and dollars than Wade Davis and Morrow, then it's probably good.

TheGMan · Mar 29, 2018

I'm ok with Greg Holland for one year. He's just not as good as his saves totals would indicate.

orangeroses07 · Mar 29, 2018

Another arm to add into the mix for the 9th inning role. Goold reporting that it is a one year deal, pending a physical.

FollowTisdale · Mar 29, 2018

TheGMan said:
I'm ok with Greg Holland for one year. He's just not as good as his saves totals would indicate.

Pretty much any reliever on a 1 year deal is fine. It's not like $14MM is going to stop them from addressing any needs moving forward, and he's not blocking anybody that will be any better, unlike a signing for a FA starter would have.

TheGMan · Mar 29, 2018

FollowTisdale said:
Pretty much any reliever on a 1 year deal is fine. It's not like $14MM is going to stop them from addressing any needs moving forward, and he's not blocking anybody that will be any better, unlike a signing for a FA starter would have.

I 100% agree. Just speaking towards some people who think that he is a dominant reliever (not necessarily on this board) because he led the league in saves last year. This was absolutely a good move.

2018 St. Louis Cardinals

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