2026 FIFA World Cup Thread

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#376      
the juiceman cometh
KBLEE said:
Maybe FIFA is just admitting that they made 2 mistakes. It should never have been a red in the first place, and they broke their established protocols to utilize VAR in an incorrect manner.
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Some questions based on this:

1. Other red cards were issued based on VAR in this World Cup. 2 against South Africa in the opener. One against Iraq 3 minutes into its first game. Did anyone inquire into whether slow motion or stills were used in those red cards?

2. Do you honestly believe this decision happens without political intervention/pressure from Trump?

3. If no to #2, is it a good thing for the sport that powerful nations can get bad calls overturned but less powerful nations cannot?

EDIT to add, I don't think it's actually been established that the ref misapplied the protocol, which actually does allow the use of slow motion to establish certain facts, including point of contact. Here is what the protocols say:

“The VAR can ‘check’ the footage in normal speed and/or in slow motion but, in general, slow-motion replays should only be used for facts, e.g. position of offence/player, point of contact for physical offences and handball, ball out of play (including goal/no goal); normal speed should be used for the ‘intensity’ of an offence or to decide if it was a handball offence.”
 
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#378      
WolfpackIllini
the juiceman cometh said:
FIFA opened up a can of worms let's see what they do now I guess:

www.independent.co.uk

Will Jarell Quansah’s World Cup red-card ban be suspended like Folarin Balogun’s?

Quansah was sent off during England’s last-16 win over Mexico and is set to miss the quarter-final with Norway but could he try to follow the precedent Fifa set by suspending Balogun’s ban?
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
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From what I understand, the english red card stemmed from the english player's leg being raised above a certain level when it contacted the other players leg. (is this true?) If so, the english player should know this and make all his tackles with his leg lower than that. Plus, the english player was watching where his feet and legs were. So altho this rule seems dicey to me, he was in the wrong by choice, and the penalty seems reasonably called.

Balo's incident was accidental, and he could not see nor control where his foot was coming down, which, also, was caused by his opponent bumping into him. So imho these 2 incidents are not remotely similar.

BTW, Why is the goalie allowed to elbow attackers in the head when he's going for the ball, but when the players do it, a penalty kick is awarded?
 
#379      
WolfpackIllini
Roundball Sage said:
For a good long while now... the World Cup is THE Sporting event for most of the Planet. Nothing else comes close. Nothing on this scale or level of following.

Many Americans don’t grasp the shame and disappointment and anger in a Nation that happens when ‘Their’ club is out. Not so for the clubs and Nations that aren’t expected to be among the elite... but within the elite clubs themselves and their International followings.

For most Americans that follow the (now) Five major sports leagues... there is ‘Always Next Year’ for their chosen team. Not so with the World Cup. Oh, there are other regional tournaments worth some bragging rights. But not to the level of the World Cup. Gotta wait a longer time and in a different time.

America has surprised the rest of the World with the level of our understanding and passion for the sport demonstrated these past weeks. Not yet near the level of the Other Guys... but growing fast.

Some of the anti-American feelings that have fostered abroad are melting away with the folks who made the trip and found out that the American people are not terrible as they may have been propagandized. And the food they are enjoying turned out to be DELICIOUS.

This is going to open some eyes and make for interesting conversations back in their homelands.
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Very well said, and all very true.
I think this is why my eyes are glued to every game I get a chance to watch.
And this is in spite of me not being a fan!
 
#380      
KBLEE
the juiceman cometh said:
Some questions based on this:

1. Other red cards were issued based on VAR in this World Cup. 2 against South Africa in the opener. One against Iraq 3 minutes into its first game. Did anyone inquire into whether slow motion or stills were used in those red cards?

2. Do you honestly believe this decision happens without political intervention/pressure from Trump?

3. If no to #2, is it a good thing for the sport that powerful nations can get bad calls overturned but less powerful nations cannot?

EDIT to add, I don't think it's actually been established that the ref misapplied the protocol, which actually does allow the use of slow motion to establish certain facts, including point of contact. Here is what the protocols say:

“The VAR can ‘check’ the footage in normal speed and/or in slow motion but, in general, slow-motion replays should only be used for facts, e.g. position of offence/player, point of contact for physical offences and handball, ball out of play (including goal/no goal); normal speed should be used for the ‘intensity’ of an offence or to decide if it was a handball offence.”
Click to expand...

1. None of those are similar, as the on-field ref made the call. In the US match, the on-field ref did not even issue a yellow card. VAR can only intervene for a "clear and obvious error". As most who saw that play said it was a yellow at most, it does not rise to the level of clear and obvious error and never should have even been referred to the on-field ref. Then they showed him slow motion and freeze frame shots, which is another error.

2. It is possible. The US had already had an appeal denied, but were ready to take their case to the Court of of Arbitration for Sport (CAS):

According to the source, U.S. Soccer presented to FIFA the prospect of bringing in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), which acts as the supreme global judiciary for athletic disputes. CAS law is applied in sports cases that require a legal resolution.​
​
CAS gets involved in cases such as doping violations, match fixing, corruption and on-field violence, among other issues.​
​
“A legal appeal was sent to FIFA,’’ the source said. “They wanted to avoid CAS. The CAS legal was ready to go.’’​
​
In the end, the Balogun case never reached any legal stage as FIFA and its disciplinary committee made its ruling, because FIFA blinked … and made the correct decision.​
 
#381      
wpr
the juiceman cometh said:
Those first two are different in that they are suspensions for red cards from non-World Cup games. FIFA did the Ronaldo one (which was purely because they wanted Ronaldo for TV viewership reasons) and then did the other two as part of an amnesty on all suspensions from WC qualifers, which they felt they had to after Ronaldo (which is exactly what might happen here with Quansah's suspension).

The 1962 precendent is the only one that is similar and that was a case study in corruption in sport. It involved political pressure, a president telling a referree from his own country to tone down his testimony, and out-and-out bribery. Not sure that's one we want to hang our hats on.

sports.yahoo.com

Bribery, secret calls and a vanishing witness: Inside the World Cup red card FIFA actually reversed

At the 1962 World Cup, FIFA gave Brazil's Garrincha a red card reprieve. That took diplomatic intervention, alleged bribery and a witness vanishing like Agatha Christie.
sports.yahoo.com sports.yahoo.com
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First I want to say I am not the person to discuss the finer points of FIFA rules. (The broader points either.) I am not even saying your interpretation is wrong. I am saying for whatever the reason, Balogun's suspension reversal is not the first and only time this has happened. It did not set the precedent. The reason may be unique but it is not as if it has never ever ever happened in the 96 years of FIFA. Whether it is right or wrong is a separate issue.
Also you may make a distinction between WC qualifying matches and actual WC games but I don't see the relevance. Both are governed by the same organization and both contribute to determining the ultimate WC champion. An argument could be made for International Friendly matches but for me, not qualifiers. Of course I can certainly be wrong.
As for your comment in your other post (#2), I am not a Trump fanboy. I would expect the leader (PM, President, Chancellor or whoever) to ask for clarification, verification, interpretation, review or anything else they can.) from the governing body to insure all options of recourse have been exhausted. I am interested to see what Keir Starmer and his staff will do. The situations are different. But I will still watch over the next few days.
 
#383      
SuperintendentChalmers
If the U.S. wins today, Friday's game against Spain or Portugal becomes an unprecedented national holiday-type atmosphere in the U.S. Weird starting time (12 PDT, 2 CDT) to accomodate European viewers, but still possibly the most-watched soccer game in American history. Also likely the end of the road for the last remaining host country should we win tonight. To me, it would be very un-FIFA-like to put that at risk for an iffy, VAR-generated call whether the President got involved or not.
 
#384      
the juiceman cometh
KBLEE said:
1. None of those are similar, as the on-field ref made the call.
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This isn't even true though. The second South Africa red was not called a foul on the field even though it happened right in front of the ref. play continued. At the first stoppage VAR was used. Slow-motion and stills were reviewed, and only then was a red card issued. (And in my opinion the red was every bit as questionalble as Balogun's). South Africa tried to appeal and do the things the US did and FIFA not only told them to shove off, the suspension was increased ro 3 games.

KBLEE said:
In the US match, the on-field ref did not even issue a yellow card. VAR can only intervene for a "clear and obvious error". As most who saw that play said it was a yellow at most, it does not rise to the level of clear and obvious error and never should have even been referred to the on-field ref. Then they showed him slow motion and freeze frame shots, which is another error.
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No it isn't the protocol allows for use of slow motion, the discourse on this has been rife with misinformation but the IFAB protocols are publicly available.

KBLEE said:
2. It is possible. The US had already had an appeal denied, but were ready to take their case to the Court of of Arbitration for Sport (CAS):

According to the source, U.S. Soccer presented to FIFA the prospect of bringing in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), which acts as the supreme global judiciary for athletic disputes. CAS law is applied in sports cases that require a legal resolution.​
​
CAS gets involved in cases such as doping violations, match fixing, corruption and on-field violence, among other issues.​
​
“A legal appeal was sent to FIFA,’’ the source said. “They wanted to avoid CAS. The CAS legal was ready to go.’’​
​
In the end, the Balogun case never reached any legal stage as FIFA and its disciplinary committee made its ruling, because FIFA blinked … and made the correct decision.​
Click to expand...
Anything is possible. The question is whether you believe that it would have.

If you just pause for a second and take an unbiased view, I think the answer has to be no. We know this because the only other time something like this has happened at the World Cup it was one of the most corrupt events in FIFA history (and that's saying something).
 
#385      
Mr. Tibbs
SuperintendentChalmers said:
If the U.S. wins today, Friday's game against Spain or Portugal becomes an unprecedented national holiday-type atmosphere in the U.S. Weird starting time (12 PDT, 2 CDT) to accomodate European viewers, but still possibly the most-watched soccer game in American history. Also likely the end of the road for the last remaining host country should we win tonight. To me, it would be very un-FIFA-like to put that at risk for an iffy, VAR-generated call whether the President got involved or not.
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we need to win tonite first , but if we do , FIFA blows a chance to give the the game its due.

imo, it should be a no earlier than 5:00pm CDT start
 
#386      
the juiceman cometh
wpr said:
First I want to say I am not the person to discuss the finer points of FIFA rules. (The broader points either.) I am not even saying your interpretation is wrong. I am saying for whatever the reason, Balogun's suspension reversal is not the first and only time this has happened. It did not set the precedent. The reason may be unique but it is not as if it has never ever ever happened in the 96 years of FIFA. Whether it is right or wrong is a separate issue.
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I guess technically, in the same sense that there is a precedent for potential host countries to buy votes (Qatar 2022) and players to score goals with their hands (Maradona). But should we be ok with that?

wpr said:
Also you may make a distinction between WC qualifying matches and actual WC games but I don't see the relevance. Both are governed by the same organization and both contribute to determining the ultimate WC champion. An argument could be made for International Friendly matches but for me, not qualifiers. Of course I can certainly be wrong.
Click to expand...
I do think that was wrong but the justification was giving all teams a free slate for the World Cup. I don't like it, and clearly it was just cover for Ronaldo, but at least it was applied evenly. This one has not been, and cannot be, as Balogun's situation happened after other players received and served similar red card suspensions.
wpr said:
As for your comment in your other post (#2), I am not a Trump fanboy. I would expect the leader (PM, President, Chancellor or whoever) to ask for clarification, verification, interpretation, review or anything else they can.) from the governing body to insure all options of recourse have been exhausted. I am interested to see what Keir Starmer and his staff will do. The situations are different. But I will still watch over the next few days.
Click to expand...
Based on reporting, and based on the last decade of observing Trump, that's not how it went down and I think we all know that.

And sure anyone can call Infantino I guess, but it's a problem that if you're powerful enough he will answer and actually listen. Not every country/FA will have that option.
 
#387      
KBLEE
the juiceman cometh said:
No it isn't the protocol allows for use of slow motion, the discourse on this has been rife with misinformation but the IFAB protocols are publicly available.
Click to expand...
Your interpretation is incorrect. Slow motion and stills can be used for confirming FACTUAL information only. It cannot be used to judge intensity, which is exactly what happened. The VAR booth used slow motion and stills to recommend the on-field ref review the challenge. This is against protocols.
 
#388      
Seppuku
Your interpretation is incorrect. Slow motion and stills can be used for confirming FACTUAL information only. It cannot be used to judge intensity, which is exactly what happened. The VAR booth used slow motion and stills to recommend the on-field ref review the challenge. This is against protocols.
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The fact that the excuse they're trying to use is the viewing protocol tells you all you need to know about whether this was a politically motivated decision or not (it is). I know people can be blinded by patriotism, but watching the game live, there was at least one replay (from the US end down field) that clearly showed that Balogun opened his legs and stepped in unnatural way. Maybe he didn't intend to step on the Bosnian defender's foot, but he definitely look to me that he was trying to hit the Bosnian defender leg rather than make real soccer play. It was very reckless play, and I thought the red card was warranted at the time, and I still do, and I think rescinding reeks of political corruption.

The VAR protocol is an excuse to justify predetermined outcome (rescinding/suspending the red card), and it is a load of crap.

GO USA
 
#389      
OrangeBlue98
Mr. Tibbs said:
we need to win tonite first , but if we do , FIFA blows a chance to give the the game its due.

imo, it should be a no earlier than 5:00pm CDT start
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The problem with that is it’s a midnight start in Spain and an 11 PM start in England.

Whether we like it or not, this is a global game with a global audience. Kickoff times will be consistent with that.

I was actually more than a little surprised the England-Mexico kickoff was a 7 PM CT scheduled time prior to weather. I get it would be brutally hot in Mexico City at that time, but it was hot in 1986 when the England-Argentina quarterfinal was played mid-afternoon as well.
 
#390      
the juiceman cometh
KBLEE said:
Your interpretation is incorrect. Slow motion and stills can be used for confirming FACTUAL information only. It cannot be used to judge intensity, which is exactly what happened. The VAR booth used slow motion and stills to recommend the on-field ref review the challenge. This is against protocols.
Click to expand...
Where has that been established? It can be used to judge point of contact - how do we know that is not why it was used?

And what about its use in the case of the South African player? It was used in the exact same way in that case and that player's suspension not only got upheld, it got extended to 3 games.
 
#391      
Roundball Sage
the juiceman cometh said:
FIFA opened up a can of worms...
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This new FIFA penalty governing adjudication system now emerging has an easy fix!

Just send all Red Cards from now on for review at the United Nations! Lobby! Take a vote on it. They are there to promote World peace, are they not? This World discontent over futbol calls could easily get of hand! Quick, get the diplomats involved. They always solve everything, right?
 
#392      
wpr
Roundball Sage said:
This new FIFA penalty governing adjudication system now emerging has an easy fix!

Just send all Red Cards from now on for review at the United Nations! Lobby! Take a vote on it. They are there to promote World peace, are they not? This World discontent over futbol calls could easily get of hand! Quick, get the diplomats involved. They always solve everything, right?
Click to expand...
As a "Roundball Sage" you are not limited to just basketball are you. Now that is truly wisdom.
 
#393      
wpr
the juiceman cometh said:
I guess technically, in the same sense that there is a precedent for potential host countries to buy votes (Qatar 2022) and players to score goals with their hands (Maradona). But should we be ok with that?


I do think that was wrong but the justification was giving all teams a free slate for the World Cup. I don't like it, and clearly it was just cover for Ronaldo, but at least it was applied evenly. This one has not been, and cannot be, as Balogun's situation happened after other players received and served similar red card suspensions.

Based on reporting, and based on the last decade of observing Trump, that's not how it went down and I think we all know that.

And sure anyone can call Infantino I guess, but it's a problem that if you're powerful enough he will answer and actually listen. Not every country/FA will have that option.
Click to expand...
Initially I didn't want to comment on this but the pull is too strong. (I am not going to break out my replies as neatly as you do. )

Yes. I find it interesting that people always want everything to be fair beyond question in sports. It's never going to happen. As I am sure you have as well, I have lived with a great many "wrong calls" in sports. Off the top of my head there is the US and USSR men's basketball debacle in 72. The Denkinger call in the Royals-Cardinals WS in 85. The Jeter "HR" where Jeffrey Maier reached out on to the field of play and took an out and turned it into a HR. The Fail Mary interception that was ruled a TD by the replacement refs in the Seattle Green Bay game. There are dozens of times various Illinois teams were left holding the bag on poor calls that cost them the game. Illinois vs scUM semi finals in 89.

Agreed. That set the precedent. But should we ignore it and walk away because Balogun isn't as prestigious as Rolando?

I don't care. I won't say I would want every single President to try and get an assessment of the suspension EXCEPT TRUMP. I don't care if he is a self serving blow hard looking to take credit for the change. I simply want Balogun on the field. As every single other country would want for their best players.

Probably not. The US is not South Sudan or Bhutan. I am not going to apologize because we are not one of the smallest or poorest or lowest ranked nations. That would be disingenuous. There was a comment made on the ESPN website earlier by Mark Ogden -
Who wants to win if victory becomes tainted by murky interventions that take place without any explanation or transparency?
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Me and a great many others. Nothing's perfect. If so the non-call made at the time of the incident would have stood and we wouldn't have to discuss this.

He's something I have not heard anyone mention- If it had been a South Sudan player would the red card been made in the first place? Is there some Anti American bias in the world? They got tangled up while fighting for position. No intent to harm was there. All the shouting isn't claiming Balogun has trying to hurt him The shouting is "How DARE you try and change our hallowed and sacrosanct rules?" If Belgium had to face South Sudan they would not be as offended.
 
#394      
jamarvelous31
wpr said:
Initially I didn't want to comment on this but the pull is too strong. (I am not going to break out my replies as neatly as you do. )

Yes. I find it interesting that people always want everything to be fair beyond question in sports. It's never going to happen. As I am sure you have as well, I have lived with a great many "wrong calls" in sports. Off the top of my head there is the US and USSR men's basketball debacle in 72. The Denkinger call in the Royals-Cardinals WS in 85. The Jeter "HR" where Jeffrey Maier reached out on to the field of play and took an out and turned it into a HR. The Fail Mary interception that was ruled a TD by the replacement refs in the Seattle Green Bay game. There are dozens of times various Illinois teams were left holding the bag on poor calls that cost them the game. Illinois vs scUM semi finals in 89.

Agreed. That set the precedent. But should we ignore it and walk away because Balogun isn't as prestigious as Rolando?

I don't care. I won't say I would want every single President to try and get an assessment of the suspension EXCEPT TRUMP. I don't care if he is a self serving blow hard looking to take credit for the change. I simply want Balogun on the field. As every single other country would want for their best players.

Probably not. The US is not South Sudan or Bhutan. I am not going to apologize because we are not one of the smallest or poorest or lowest ranked nations. That would be disingenuous. There was a comment made on the ESPN website earlier by Mark Ogden - Me and a great many others. Nothing's perfect. If so the non-call made at the time of the incident would have stood and we wouldn't have to discuss this.

He's something I have not heard anyone mention- If it had been a South Sudan player would the red card been made in the first place? Is there some Anti American bias in the world? They got tangled up while fighting for position. No intent to harm was there. All the shouting isn't claiming Balogun has trying to hurt him The shouting is "How DARE you try and change our hallowed and sacrosanct rules?" If Belgium had to face South Sudan they would not be as offended.
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"Our hallowed and sacrosanct rules"...that we already made an exception for Renaldo on to play the first 2 games in.

Really curious to see how the England defender Quansah's red card is handled.. seems like FIFA just opened a box that will be exceptionally hard to close.
 
#395      
BWBW
If Balogun and the coach take the high road and he sits out today's game, what will people say?

Not going to happen??? Probably not. But it's a possibility.
 
#396      
Mr. Tibbs
BWBW said:
If Balogun and the coach take the high road and he sits out today's game, what will people say?

Not going to happen??? Probably not. But it's a possibility.
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I’ll bet 100-1 he starts & plays A LOT
 
#398      
WolfpackIllini
BWBW said:
If Balogun and the coach take the high road and he sits out today's game, what will people say?

Not going to happen??? Probably not. But it's a possibility.
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I heard they plan to sit him after he completes his hat trick.
 
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