The pack is based off good ball pressure and sagging off other players one pass away to help on drives. The only real rule for the on ball guy is "guard your yard" which basically means don't get beat on a straight line drive. Force the driver more than 3 feet to either side and you'll have proper help. But good ball pressure is a staple of any defense. Zones included.
As the coach, what would you do differently?
The pack is based off good ball pressure and sagging off other players one pass away to help on drives. The only real rule for the on ball guy is "guard your yard" which basically means don't get beat on a straight line drive. Force the driver more than 3 feet to either side and you'll have proper help. But good ball pressure is a staple of any defense. Zones included.
Yup. And we violate that rule all the time, especially pretty much any time we switch.
Switches are actually supposed to be a strength of a packline since you have immediate help coming as long as you force you guy outside of a straight line. But yeah, we always get beat on a straight line and I feel like changes in help based on the scouting report are not executed well.
And we must lead the Big Ten in "broken PlayStation controller" rotations.
Though honestly, while there are a lot of defensive issues, the difference between our excellent defense three years ago and our bad defense now can probably just be summed up as "Nnanna Egwu versus Maverick Morgan".
Guards were better defenders too. Ray could defend and appeared to want to. Bertrand could. Nunn was good his freshman year. Abrams gave good effort on opposing points. That team held 4 straight opponents to under 50, including msu in Lansing. Just a sick stretch of defense in conference play. But they severely lacked offense and shooting.
You have to have the players to play in they're grill. We get beat like a drum off the dribble. Like what you're saying we just don't have the players to do it.
Do you remember when people wanted Egwu benched for his lack of offense? Another example of the collective inability to see what certain guys bring to the table.
As for the general topic, this is a great thread. If we're talking about this year, there is not much that can be done that will improve our chances of victory. The up-tempo press might be fun to watch for 5 minutes (or if you have Huggins coaching it), but we'll get blown out. We simply do not have the ability to run that style.
Right now we have a bunch of athletically limited players who are poorly coached on defense. Teach them positioning and how/when to help and hope for the best.
The single greatest improvement that can be made is in the rotations though. Many are amazed that Tate sees the floor. Others want to bench Abrams. Somehow these two were on the court at the same time for a significant part of the game yesterday.
Another measure that has also been mentioned is accountability. I'd pull guys the second they did not give 100% on defense. I'd pull guys the first time I see them stand still on offense.
No X/O in my post. I'm not smart enough for that and quite frankly, I have not seen enough from any of our guys to know what they might actually be good at.
Long term, teach the guys. Teach them how to deny. Teach them how to cut off an angle. Teach them how to step in and take a charge. Teach them how to fight through a screen. Teach them how to use a screen. Teach them how to move without the ball. Teach them how to drive with a purpose. The list of things our team is bad at is so long that we really need an entire offseason to fix the issues that plague this team.
One quick suggestion. Design an offense that takes advantage of the current players talents. Be more flexible in that area.
As the coach of this team I think it would be beneficial to get some therapy. Team play reflects the mental state of the coach. Notice how teams take on the demeanor of the coach. This team plays anxious, indecisive, and slow. The coach seems anxious, indecisive, and slow. Coach Groce has no idea what to do now. He doesn't trust himself to make decisions so everything is either very conservative or making changes just for the sake of change but with no real understanding of what he is seeking to do. That state of mind makes it nearly impossible for him to learn from his own mistakes.
I know therapy will never happen because men are supposed to be tough, you get paid all this money and stress is part of the deal, you fight through difficult times, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, drink a beer, rub some dirt on it, blah, blah blah. Watch any of these coaches as their team, program, career is threatened. Deer in headlights. Remember Coach Weber coming unglued, some of his comments as his team went down the drain, some of the guys he was recruiting at the end? And, compared to Coach Groce, he had many more years of experience but he had not dealt with the same level of pressure to produce like he encountered at Illinois, especially after 2005. Now, a few years removed from the situation, he actually is looking like a coach again.
If your a coach with a history of consistent success then weathering a rough period is infinitely easier, you don't question your ability to coach, you have a pretty good idea about how to right the ship. A young coach like Groce who had experienced limited success as a head coach, was thrust into the spotlight, identified as the savior, had early success, had a string of bad luck complicated by some poor decision-making, he's screwed. At this point he's just trying to look like he's not a basket case, hoping for some miracle to save the season.
Collectively Coach Groce and his staff probably have well over 100 years of basketball experience. Any strategies offered by anyone on this board would not be a revelation to them. The team would likely not be a FF contender regardless of who the coach is, but they are certainly talented enough to be competitive every game and win their fair share. And yet the coaches and the team seem completely lost and offer platitudes like playing with pride, clean up some stuff, whatever. Rant over. Carry on.
I know therapy will never happen because men are supposed to be tough, you get paid all this money and stress is part of the deal, you fight through difficult times, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, drink a beer, rub some dirt on it, blah, blah blah. Watch any of these coaches as their team, program, career is threatened. Deer in headlights. Remember Coach Weber coming unglued, some of his comments as his team went down the drain, some of the guys he was recruiting at the end? And, compared to Coach Groce, he had many more years of experience but he had not dealt with the same level of pressure to produce like he encountered at Illinois, especially after 2005. Now, a few years removed from the situation, he actually is looking like a coach again.
If your a coach with a history of consistent success then weathering a rough period is infinitely easier, you don't question your ability to coach, you have a pretty good idea about how to right the ship. A young coach like Groce who had experienced limited success as a head coach, was thrust into the spotlight, identified as the savior, had early success, had a string of bad luck complicated by some poor decision-making, he's screwed. At this point he's just trying to look like he's not a basket case, hoping for some miracle to save the season.
Collectively Coach Groce and his staff probably have well over 100 years of basketball experience. Any strategies offered by anyone on this board would not be a revelation to them. The team would likely not be a FF contender regardless of who the coach is, but they are certainly talented enough to be competitive every game and win their fair share. And yet the coaches and the team seem completely lost and offer platitudes like playing with pride, clean up some stuff, whatever. Rant over. Carry on.
Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
- Bloomington, IL
If I were the coach, what would I do differently? In no particular order
1. Triangle offense. Seriously. I know its hard to do in college, but I love it and it works when the right players are in it and execute. OK, it's impossible to do in college, but that's why I'm not the coach.
2. Manage the clock better. One of my gripes with Groce beginning with his first season is that he wastes timeouts, sometimes calling them within 30 game seconds of a media time out.
3. Defense. Defense. Defense. Don't recruit kids that don't want to play D. Don't put kids on the floor that don't want to play D. Don't give a scholarship to a walkon that can't play D. Hell, don't issue a uniform to someone that can't/won't play D.
4. Keep the coach-speak out of pressers and interviews as much as possible. If you don't have anything else to say, don't say anything (i.e. Lovie)
1. Triangle offense. Seriously. I know its hard to do in college, but I love it and it works when the right players are in it and execute. OK, it's impossible to do in college, but that's why I'm not the coach.
2. Manage the clock better. One of my gripes with Groce beginning with his first season is that he wastes timeouts, sometimes calling them within 30 game seconds of a media time out.
3. Defense. Defense. Defense. Don't recruit kids that don't want to play D. Don't put kids on the floor that don't want to play D. Don't give a scholarship to a walkon that can't play D. Hell, don't issue a uniform to someone that can't/won't play D.
4. Keep the coach-speak out of pressers and interviews as much as possible. If you don't have anything else to say, don't say anything (i.e. Lovie)
Wokker
- "The Good Land", WI
I would think the fact that it is 2017 would make this line of reasoning absurd. I doubt Groce/Whitman/staff would scoff at mentally strengthening exercises. Seeing a sports psychologist and/or mental skills coach is becoming pretty common in professional sports. Take the Cubs for one.
Maybe it's a matter of resources, but I would be shocked if we don't have a culture from JW down that would not only accept but embrace this type of thing.
Wokker
- "The Good Land", WI
Also, as a high school coach and someone who plays lots of pickup ball, I really appreciate this thread. Tons of good insight.
I know the staff knows more than anyone on this board and intimately knows the players. But when a team of your players that you've developed looks this bad, it is rightfully open season on their decision making.
I know the staff knows more than anyone on this board and intimately knows the players. But when a team of your players that you've developed looks this bad, it is rightfully open season on their decision making.
Against my better judgement I hope to illustrate the relevant difference between mental skills training and therapy. For instance, consider you are working with a vet who has experienced trauma in combat. Mental strengthening/skills training is really not going to be of significant benefit. I didn't read that in a book.
Secondly, we all experience trauma to varying degrees as a result of events that we are expected to 'get over'. That's the part that men struggle with here in 2017. In the world of men having a disruptive trauma response to anything short of combat is typically interpreted as sign of weakness.
Mental skills training/strengthening is appealing to men because there is no implication of weakness or vulnerability. It's like lifting weights, exercise. It's also of limited utility when dealing with the majority of issues that significantly affect performance.
If it is insinuated that a coach or the players on a team experience some form of trauma response due to the collective stress over the course of a couple bad years then the predicted response would be similar to what I described in the original post. It is just not well accepted.
I believe this contributes to the AD and staff showing no interest in further information regarding this type of intervention. Shocking.
I would encourage you to review work done with EMDR in addressing sports performance. EMDR was developed to address PTSD. Application of the technique to sports is very encouraging in multiple ways. I've used the technique clinically for 23 years. It's a very good tool. And I've worked successfully with athletes.
RedRocksIllini
- Morrison, CO
Glad someone else noticed this. Possibly the least imaginative "play" I've ever seen. It is absolutely amazing how often we guys just standing still off the ball on offense.
I would try to win more games. Earning $1-2 million a year at a university with a good basketball tradition means I have to meet a high standard of performance. It doesn't matter too much how I get there, absent something that creates a PR nightmare, they'll give me broad leeway to do so. Fans might not enjoy 'ugly' basketball as much as flashy, but they will be happy with anything that is 'winning' basketball.
I'll grant you that's a snarky response. But it makes my point. All my ideas on how to do it don't really matter, nor do I want to see Groce try and implement them. I see a lot of flaws, major flaws, and I'd like to see them addressed, but there are so many that marginal improvements by Groce mean less to me that the potential for an overhaul.
I Bomb
Stylin' and Profilin'
I guess I'm one of those who thinks it still all boils down to recruiting. I find myself getting angry that guys like Coleman-Lands and Abrams don't run screens furiously like Head and Brown did, but then remember they're just not the same players and that's setting the bar high. Having a protector/shot blocker of any type in the lane who can provide help on penetration would be a total game changer on defense.
I'm not sure what I'd do with this group of guys - the deficiencies are easy to scout for other teams.
I'm not sure what I'd do with this group of guys - the deficiencies are easy to scout for other teams.
Wokker
- "The Good Land", WI
Thanks for the clarification. So you're saying the trauma of multiple highly stressful years would warrant therapy for the team? Would this be a group thing? Individual? both?
Also, do you know for a fact that this is something Illinois is not interested in, or basing it on societal norms for men overall?
I'm not disagreeing with your assessment of men and their perception of weakness. You clearly are an expert in the field. I have a hard time seeing Illinois' AD and other leadership thinking that to be a bad idea.
They're waiting for a secondary action that never arrives.
kaptain80
- STL
I would whip on someone until they became a vicious pit bull who thought their purpose in life was to mangle someone on the opposing team. I don't mean fights or fouls or anything obviously dirty, but make someone more of a Lucas Johnson type that could frustrate an opposing player/coach/team until they made their own idiot mistakes. If you can't create turnovers from steals, create turnovers from Fear.
Also, who do you think the leader of this team is? Ostensibly, it's Malcolm, right? I don't think so. Malcolm is one of my favorite Illini, but he's the engine, not the captain. I thought Old Man Abrams might fill that role based on experience alone, but I think he's lost his confidence as the season has gone on. Someone's gotta be that secret leader of the bunch, right? Work on that guy until it's clear to an observer who it is. I don't want to be told who it is, I want to Know who it is.
I mean, it's too late to improve skills and change playbooks this season, so: let's scrap. We had Toughness and Togetherness (TM), but like a good corporate slogan it wasn't something in the hearts of the people it was foisted on. You don't need a slogan when your team is actually tough--it's self-evident.
Also, who do you think the leader of this team is? Ostensibly, it's Malcolm, right? I don't think so. Malcolm is one of my favorite Illini, but he's the engine, not the captain. I thought Old Man Abrams might fill that role based on experience alone, but I think he's lost his confidence as the season has gone on. Someone's gotta be that secret leader of the bunch, right? Work on that guy until it's clear to an observer who it is. I don't want to be told who it is, I want to Know who it is.
I mean, it's too late to improve skills and change playbooks this season, so: let's scrap. We had Toughness and Togetherness (TM), but like a good corporate slogan it wasn't something in the hearts of the people it was foisted on. You don't need a slogan when your team is actually tough--it's self-evident.
RedRocksIllini
- Morrison, CO
ILL in IA
- Iowa City
I would really like to see JCL moving without the ball. I don't like to compare college kids to great NBA players, but look at what Clay Thompson does without the ball. He never stops moving. And not just side to side stuff outside the arc. That guy runs circles in the offensive zone going off of screens helping move the defense and get the right shot.
Early on under Groce, Nanna missed so many opportunities in the pick and roll game because of his bad hands. We should be running this a lot more with Black and Mav.
I also think we should look at what Iowa does with Jok and use it more for Hill. Jok may not bring the ball up, but the ball goes to Jok almost all times down in the offensive zone to get him his look early, if its not there the ball goes back to the second option via post or ball screen. The ball goes to Hill quite a bit, but the tempo on him breaking down his man or looking for the next option needs to be sped up. He dishes off way to late in the clock.
Early on under Groce, Nanna missed so many opportunities in the pick and roll game because of his bad hands. We should be running this a lot more with Black and Mav.
I also think we should look at what Iowa does with Jok and use it more for Hill. Jok may not bring the ball up, but the ball goes to Jok almost all times down in the offensive zone to get him his look early, if its not there the ball goes back to the second option via post or ball screen. The ball goes to Hill quite a bit, but the tempo on him breaking down his man or looking for the next option needs to be sped up. He dishes off way to late in the clock.
They look more like they're waiting for a bus to arrive.
I believe the name of the play is 'Check your Messages'
I appreciate your thoughtful response. Sometimes that doesn't occur on fan boards. If therapeutic intervention were to be utilized it would be individually, starting with the coach(s). Given the absence of response from the AD and staff, including coaching staff, my assumption is, for whatever reason, there is insufficient interest.
Actually the absence of response is not a surprise. When someone offers information that is contradictory to your beliefs about how the world or humans function, the powerful tendency is to reject that information.That rejection occurs regardless of the scientific/research support for the information or idea.
As an example, check out the history of H. pylori as it relates to the development of ulcers. One of the researchers, Marshall, became so frustrated with the persistent 'skepticism' they encountered he drank a beaker containing H. pylori to identify the bacteria as a causative agent. The revisionist history downplays the 'skepticism'. Regardless, Marshall and his co-researcher, Warren, were awarded the Nobel Prize for medicine in 2005.
The point is, this pattern of rejection of paradigm shifting ideas is not new and not unique to this situation. And that pattern is imbedded in humans. So the absence of response is not in any way shocking but actually what I expected. As an Illini fan of about 60 years it frustrating but at my age frustration doesn't affect me like it used to. My wife thinks I don't know when to shut up.
I am not privy to the inner workings of the the coaching staff, but my hunch is that the primary issue is Groce's refusal to replace his assistants. I hypothesize, without any insight into the staff, that Brandon Miller was essential for Groce's early success in year one.
Here are two articles from 2012 and 2013 involving Groce with the usage of advanced metrics and tempo free stats. In my opinion this year's advanced metrics and usage statistics are so far skewed from the philosophy presented in these articles either Groce has radically altered his philosophy, or his assistants are incapable of delivering for him.
Let's just casually compare the 2012/13 season to this season.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/illinois/2013.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/illinois/2017.html
In 2012 DJ had the highest Efficiency Rating at 18.1, with BP3 the only other "Slightly Above Average" player at 17.7. Nanna and Tracy were the only "Rotation" players. While the remaining 4 rotation players were rated as "Non-Rotation" players.
This year we have 4 players rated higher than DJ was in 2012/13 (Malcom, Maverick, Tejon, and Finke). Malcom is rated as a "Definite All-Star", and Maverick as a "Borderline All-Star". Leron checks in after those four as a "Rotation Player".
The difference I believe is that in 2012/13 only 2.3% of the minutes were allotted to players with an Efficiency Rating below 11. This year a WHOPPING 23.2% of the minutes have been allocated to players in that category.
The problem I believe is that we aren't playing our best players according to the numbers. Its debatable amongst ourselves whether these statistics are relevant and accurately represent reality. There is ample evidence though that John Groce has adopted and welcomed these metrics throughout his career.
So, the question is why isn't he following their guidance?
Here are two articles from 2012 and 2013 involving Groce with the usage of advanced metrics and tempo free stats. In my opinion this year's advanced metrics and usage statistics are so far skewed from the philosophy presented in these articles either Groce has radically altered his philosophy, or his assistants are incapable of delivering for him.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/s...o-coach-groce-fueled-by-drive-and-coffee.html
http://athlonsports.com/college-bas...-integral-part-basketball-scouting-evaluation
Let's just casually compare the 2012/13 season to this season.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/illinois/2013.html
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/illinois/2017.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_efficiency_rating
In 2012 DJ had the highest Efficiency Rating at 18.1, with BP3 the only other "Slightly Above Average" player at 17.7. Nanna and Tracy were the only "Rotation" players. While the remaining 4 rotation players were rated as "Non-Rotation" players.
This year we have 4 players rated higher than DJ was in 2012/13 (Malcom, Maverick, Tejon, and Finke). Malcom is rated as a "Definite All-Star", and Maverick as a "Borderline All-Star". Leron checks in after those four as a "Rotation Player".
The difference I believe is that in 2012/13 only 2.3% of the minutes were allotted to players with an Efficiency Rating below 11. This year a WHOPPING 23.2% of the minutes have been allocated to players in that category.
The problem I believe is that we aren't playing our best players according to the numbers. Its debatable amongst ourselves whether these statistics are relevant and accurately represent reality. There is ample evidence though that John Groce has adopted and welcomed these metrics throughout his career.
So, the question is why isn't he following their guidance?