Big Ten Media Rights / Conference Realignment

Second and Chalmers · Aug 23, 2016

miketherevelator said:
As an addition to the previous Memphis article.
What the Memphis writer called Fed Ex stepping forward in an extraordinary --even unprecedented -- way, it appears this writer calls it bribery.
http://newsok.com/tramel-why-uconn-...12s-best-expansion-candidates/article/5514715

And you wonder if any of this is going to matter. Is the Big 12 going to break up in 10 years anyway? Then all of these desperate schools will be left out in the wilderness yet again.

The one also-ran school that has really found themselves on dry land in a permanent way somehow is Utah. How they pulled that off I'll never know.

Joel Goodson · Aug 23, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
And you wonder if any of this is going to matter. Is the Big 12 going to break up in 10 years anyway? Then all of these desperate schools will be left out in the wilderness yet again.

The one also-ran school that has really found themselves on dry land in a permanent way somehow is Utah. How they pulled that off I'll never know.

The PAC wasn't going to 11 schools. Utah was their best option.

Second and Chalmers · Aug 23, 2016

Joel Goodson said:
The PAC wasn't going to 11 schools. Utah was their best option.

I suspect if they would have waited the situation out, they might have made the Pac 16 a reality. Larry Scott was (and is) very very aggressive though.

The Pac 16 will remain one of the great "what if's" of sports history.

AaronB28 · Aug 23, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
I suspect if they would have waited the situation out, they might have made the Pac 16 a reality. Larry Scott was (and is) very very aggressive though.

The Pac 16 will remain one of the great "what if's" of sports history.

Notre dame will HAFTA join someone soon.....I'm guessing Boise st will try tonget into the PAC as well

DrewD007 · Aug 23, 2016

AaronB28 said:
Notre dame will HAFTA join someone soon.....I'm guessing Boise st will try tonget into the PAC as well

Pac doesn't want Boise State. Notre Dame will hold out as long as possible.

Give it to Greene · Aug 23, 2016

DrewD007 said:
Pac doesn't want Boise State. Notre Dame will hold out as long as possible.

I sure hope ND holds out... or officially joins some other conference.... Please .... NO Domers in the B1G... Please....

IrishIllini · Aug 23, 2016

DrewD007 said:
Pac doesn't want Boise State. Notre Dame will hold out as long as possible.

I agree we're probably waiting to see what happens with ND. They make most sense in the B1G by far. Whether we put them in the East or the West depends on who else we take to get to 16. I'd personally like to see them in the West, but then it's another team to beat to get to Indy. At least in the East we don't have to beat them during the regular season.

Double Down · Aug 23, 2016

IrishIllini said:
I agree we're probably waiting to see what happens with ND. They make most sense in the B1G by far. Whether we put them in the East or the West depends on who else we take to get to 16. I'd personally like to see them in the West, but then it's another team to beat to get to Indy. At least in the East we don't have to beat them during the regular season.

I would assume that if the B1G expands to include ND that they would do a conference realignment and get rid of the East/West because of the dominance by teams in the East as of late. But as I type this out, SEC has never realigned because of the strength on one side or the other so why would the B1G?

Joel Goodson · Aug 23, 2016

IrishIllini said:
I agree we're probably waiting to see what happens with ND. They make most sense in the B1G by far. Whether we put them in the East or the West depends on who else we take to get to 16. I'd personally like to see them in the West, but then it's another team to beat to get to Indy. At least in the East we don't have to beat them during the regular season.

There is no way, NO WAY!, ND is joining any conference unless they no longer have a path to the playoffs. Absolutely no way, no how. Not going to happen. Forget about it.

brosox · Aug 23, 2016

DrewD007 said:
Pac doesn't want Boise State. Notre Dame will hold out as long as possible.

As a member of the ACC in every sport but football, does ND have to pay at least a partial exit fee to leave? The exit fee for other ACC members is
pretty onerous so even if it is just a partial fee, I can't see ND leaving.

Second and Chalmers · Aug 23, 2016

Joel Goodson said:
There is no way, NO WAY!, ND is joining any conference unless they no longer have a path to the playoffs. Absolutely no way, no how. Not going to happen. Forget about it.

That's kind of a big "unless"

4x16 would have done it. NBC deciding they don't want to pay top dollar anymore would probably do it too.

ND likes being independent and will stay independent as long as they can get away with it. That much is true.

brosox said:
As a member of the ACC in every sport but football, does ND have to pay at least a partial exit fee to leave? The exit fee for other ACC members is
pretty onerous so even if it is just a partial fee, I can't see ND leaving.

Well, ND obviously didn't grant their rights to the ACC like the rest of the conference, so there must be some kind of enforcement mechanism. Maybe they granted all their non-football rights? That would be weird, if a new conference didn't have the rights to ND basketball or other sports for several years. I also recall there being something in the contract regarding ND having to join the ACC if they joined a conference at all. Probably some sort of liquid damages provision connected to that.

IMO, both the Big Ten and Notre Dame have known deep down the story ends with the two of them together for damn near 100 years, as much as neither party is really excited about it and more than that is desperate to appear to not want it. It's a funny relationship.

Greensboro · Aug 24, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
That's kind of a big "unless"

I also recall there being something in the contract regarding ND having to join the ACC if they joined a conference at all. Probably some sort of liquid damages provision connected to that.

Agree on the unless part, ND is bound and determined to keep there independence, but there room to maneuver is getting limited as alignment is changing the landscape. ACC threw them a lifeline with partial membership as well as ND's football throwing the ACC a lifeline in conference realignment.

Agreeing to join the ACC for Football if they choose to join a conference before current GOR is up is ND's commitment.

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

Random prediction: somehow, some way, Texas and Oklahoma are going to join forces with the SEC.

IrishIllini · Sep 7, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Random prediction: somehow, some way, Texas and Oklahoma are going to join forces with the SEC.

Didn't A&M somehow manage to make it difficult, if not impossible, for TX to join the SEC? TX's academics are also above those of most SEC schools. Oklahoma would be just peachy there [emoji13]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

IrishIllini said:
Didn't A&M somehow manage to make it difficult, if not impossible, for TX to join the SEC? TX's academics are also above those of most SEC schools. Oklahoma would be just peachy there [emoji13]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Anything contractual could be worked around, and if you don't understand that academics don't matter in this by now, I don't know what to tell you.

Look at these divisions

West: Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, LSU, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Mizzou, Mississippi State

East: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Vanderbilt

That's untouchable. A Rest-Of-America 16 would struggle to match that. That's the NFL of college football, both on the field and commercially.

That's obvious. The question is if that's powerful enough to blast through Texas' first-among-equals arrogance and whatever the Oklahoma legislative situation is when the time comes. My guess is yes. In 2025 or whenever, this is happening and the rest of the tectonic plates will need to shift accordingly.

Greensboro · Sep 7, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
Random prediction: somehow, some way, Texas and Oklahoma are going to join forces with the SEC.

IrishIllini said:
Didn't A&M somehow manage to make it difficult, if not impossible, for TX to join the SEC? TX's academics are also above those of most SEC schools. Oklahoma would be just peachy there [emoji13]

Don't remember the exact percentage, but it isn't a one man veto which I think the B1G still has, but SC, FL, GA were supposed to have a gentleman's agreement that they would stick together to block Clemson, GT, or FSU...3 votes was enough, at least before last expansion. But with the value of Texas I don't think A&M would find enough friends to block Texas even if SC, FL, GA needed one more vote.

Second and Chalmers said:
Anything contractual could be worked around, and if you don't understand that academics don't matter in this by now, I don't know what to tell you.

I go by Frank the Tanks's 1st rule, University Presidents make these decisions, not fans...to Presidents academics absolutely matter.

Second and Chalmers said:
Look at these divisions

West: Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, LSU, Ole Miss, Arkansas, Mizzou, Mississippi State

East: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Tennessee, Auburn, South Carolina, Kentucky, Vanderbilt

That's untouchable. A Rest-Of-America 16 would struggle to match that. That's the NFL of college football, both on the field and commercially.

That's obvious. The question is if that's powerful enough to blast through Texas' first-among-equals arrogance and whatever the Oklahoma legislative situation is when the time comes. My guess is yes. In 2025 or whenever, this is happening and the rest of the tectonic plates will need to shift accordingly.

With latest contract B1G should once again be ahead financially of SEC, so adding Texas to B1G is going to make Texas even more money...go to the B1G West and they have a relatively easy path to get to the B1G title game compared to the B1G East or the SEC West...throw in academics and I think the SEC is Texas's 3rd choice. Personally, I think most likely is the ACC with some sort of improved/negotiated terms, ACC has already given ND a free pass so there is a precedent there & it would end any speculation of if ACC is in the new Power 4. Terms may not be football independent, but they keep Longhorn Network, join ND on NBC & work it so Texas is home on weeks ND is on road, ACC will throw them some large bone to make it happen that neither the SEC/B1G will be willing to do.

mattcoldagelli · Sep 7, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
if you don't understand that academics don't matter in this by now, I don't know what to tell you.

That's probably oversimplifying. They may not matter to the SEC, but the schools and some of the conferences, notably the B1G and the PAC-12 have been far too adamant on this point for it to just be posturing.

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

Greensboro said:
Personally, I think most likely is the ACC with some sort of improved/negotiated terms, ACC has already given ND a free pass so there is a precedent there & it would end any speculation of if ACC is in the new Power 4. Terms may not be football independent, but they keep Longhorn Network, join ND on NBC & work it so Texas is home on weeks ND is on road, ACC will throw them some large bone to make it happen that neither the SEC/B1G will be willing to do.

That's absolutely nails on a chalkboard for folks who want a clean, clear structure, but in terms of a deal that both parties might be just crazy enough to make, that's a pretty interesting idea.

ESPN will probably cut bait with the Longhorn Network before agreeing to something like that, but hey, maybe not.

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

mattcoldagelli said:
That's probably oversimplifying. They may not matter to the SEC, but the schools and some of the conferences, notably the B1G and the PAC-12 have been far too adamant on this point for it to just be posturing.

Conferences are a bit skittish about a glorified (and former) Juco like Boise State, because that would be uncouth for their little ivory tower tea and cakes parties, but in terms of real land grant state universities, it truly is all just posturing.

Academics are important in conference expansion in the way that they are important in recruiting. People do truly "care", it's a thing to say and it will always be cited as a post-hoc factor, but when the rubber meets the road of the decision process, academic distinctions are malleable in a way that on-the-field realities simply are not.

Sybok · Sep 7, 2016

Greensboro said:
Don't remember the exact percentage, but it isn't a one man veto which I think the B1G still has, but SC, FL, GA were supposed to have a gentleman's agreement that they would stick together to block Clemson, GT, or FSU...3 votes was enough, at least before last expansion. But with the value of Texas I don't think A&M would find enough friends to block Texas even if SC, FL, GA needed one more vote.

I go by Frank the Tanks's 1st rule, University Presidents make these decisions, not fans...to Presidents academics absolutely matter.

With latest contract B1G should once again be ahead financially of SEC, so adding Texas to B1G is going to make Texas even more money...go to the B1G West and they have a relatively easy path to get to the B1G title game compared to the B1G East or the SEC West...throw in academics and I think the SEC is Texas's 3rd choice. Personally, I think most likely is the ACC with some sort of improved/negotiated terms, ACC has already given ND a free pass so there is a precedent there & it would end any speculation of if ACC is in the new Power 4. Terms may not be football independent, but they keep Longhorn Network, join ND on NBC & work it so Texas is home on weeks ND is on road, ACC will throw them some large bone to make it happen that neither the SEC/B1G will be willing to do.

That's a really good point about the Longhorn Network/ACC/ND and NBC contract, because outside of that, the best place for Texas and money would be the B1G.

Greensboro · Sep 7, 2016

Sybok said:
That's a really good point about the Longhorn Network/ACC/ND and NBC contract, because outside of that, the best place for Texas and money would be the B1G.

Both B1G & SEC money are huge, SEC is a better fit geographically; but all that said Texas's first choice seemed to be to bring all there power circle and go PAC, so I could see that going any way depending on the direction of the wind when it happens.

The way I look at it, by just breaking up the big12 it solidifies the ACC's spot in the Power 4. If they take Texas/Oklahoma it dramatically strengthens there position with regards to B1G/SEC raids. The ACC has to want it the most & will be the most compliant with Texas and there demands. The question then becomes will Oklahoma follow Texas, which I kind of doubt, I think at that point they look for a spot in B1G/SEC/PAC and as far away from a Texas controlled conference as possible?

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

Greensboro said:
Both B1G & SEC money are huge, SEC is a better fit geographically; but all that said Texas's first choice seemed to be to bring all there power circle and go PAC, so I could see that going any way depending on the direction of the wind when it happens.

I feel like you're thinking a little too small-bore.

The Pac 16 wasn't about choosing a current TV package to glom onto, it was proposed as a paradigm shift for the sport.

And SEC with Texas and Oklahoma would be that to a factor of ten. All discussions of conference strength are over, forever, at least for the number one spot. One conference permanently leaving the rest behind in terms of on-field quality. And with the nationalization of college football interest, plus the depth of cultural penetration those programs have in growing areas of the country, you at least create the possibility of leaving everyone else behind revenue-wise as well. And in a way which is not reliant on running two-bit cable bill hustles on local grandmas, that's a juggernaut to be reckoned with in any media environment, because it's such an arsenal of must-see programming.

The Big Ten can't offer Texas that. The Big Ten's offer is a handful of upfront cash and a fake sheen of prestige for the University. Which is good, but it's not THAT.

It's always going to be tough for Texas to make that leap if they can keep a pile of money all to themselves and beggar their neighbors. Exceptionalism seems to trump genuine ambition among that fanbase. And OU is key to the plan and whether they can break free of OSU is an open question.

But if the logistics can be ironed out, the only parties I can envision saying no are the Vandy's and Kentucky's who would just never be able to compete. But all that money is tough to turn down.

IrishIllini · Sep 7, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
I feel like you're thinking a little too small-bore.

The Pac 16 wasn't about choosing a current TV package to glom onto, it was proposed as a paradigm shift for the sport.

And SEC with Texas and Oklahoma would be that to a factor of ten. All discussions of conference strength are over, forever, at least for the number one spot. One conference permanently leaving the rest behind in terms of on-field quality. And with the nationalization of college football interest, plus the depth of cultural penetration those programs have in growing areas of the country, you at least create the possibility of leaving everyone else behind revenue-wise as well. And in a way which is not reliant on running two-bit cable bill hustles on local grandmas, that's a juggernaut to be reckoned with in any media environment, because it's such an arsenal of must-see programming.

The Big Ten can't offer Texas that. The Big Ten's offer is a handful of upfront cash and a fake sheen of prestige for the University. Which is good, but it's not THAT.

It's always going to be tough for Texas to make that leap if they can keep a pile of money all to themselves and beggar their neighbors. Exceptionalism seems to trump genuine ambition among that fanbase. And OU is key to the plan and whether they can break free of OSU is an open question.

But if the logistics can be ironed out, the only parties I can envision saying no are the Vandy's and Kentucky's who would just never be able to compete. But all that money is tough to turn down.

There's more to joining a conference than who you play on Saturday in the Fall. Research means a lot to TX. Not so much for Oklahoma. The SEC just does not have the intercollegiate cooperation that the B1G does. The B1G is incredibly effective at joining forces to secure large research grants from the Feds. If TX wishes to retain a strong academic profile and Athletic Department, the B1G could edge out the SEC. For the record I have no interest in TX joining the B1G. I'd much rather us take ND and Missouri (I know many disagree here) or Virginia.

Greensboro · Sep 7, 2016

Second and Chalmers said:
I feel like you're thinking a little too small-bore.
...Not at all, it will be about Texas maximizing money, influence, opportunities to stay the big fish, politics...it will be complicated

The Pac 16 wasn't about choosing a current TV package to glom onto, it was proposed as a paradigm shift for the sport.
No, it was Texas bringing along there posse, going California, & University prestige

And SEC with Texas and Oklahoma would be that to a factor of ten. All discussions of conference strength are over, forever, at least for the number one spot. One conference permanently leaving the rest behind in terms of on-field quality. And with the nationalization of college football interest, plus the depth of cultural penetration those programs have in growing areas of the country, you at least create the possibility of leaving everyone else behind revenue-wise as well. And in a way which is not reliant on running two-bit cable bill hustles on local grandmas, that's a juggernaut to be reckoned with in any media environment, because it's such an arsenal of must-see programming.
Quite frankly, SEC has already left the B1G behind in Football, but it isn't about conference football superiority, for Texas it will be about Texas Football opportunity, they can make more money & have a perfect setup in B1G West, there will be way more in play than Texas wanting to make the SEC the #1 Football conference.

The Big Ten can't offer Texas that. The Big Ten's offer is a handful of upfront cash and a fake sheen of prestige for the University. Which is good, but it's not THAT.

It's always going to be tough for Texas to make that leap if they can keep a pile of money all to themselves and beggar their neighbors. Exceptionalism seems to trump genuine ambition among that fanbase. And OU is key to the plan and whether they can break free of OSU is an open question.
This isn't about the fanbase at all. Texas president/board will make the call and it will be way more complicated than creating the best conference, no doubt Texas will be negotiating for prestige, power, money & there political circle in general. IMO, OK depends on the situation, I think they are probably hard pressed to leave OSU for dead if the B1G 12 is kicking, but Texas leaves & I think OU will be able to save themselves in a crumbling Big 12. Not sure anyone knows the full story from the last round, but there were plenty of rumors that the last time the B1G was OK's first choice, I'd be very surprised if they followed Texas to ACC in a deal where Texas has negotiated a special deal with the conference.

But if the logistics can be ironed out, the only parties I can envision saying no are the Vandy's and Kentucky's who would just never be able to compete. But all that money is tough to turn down.
Absolutely no one in SEC would turn down Texas and/or Oklahoma, except probably Texas A&M on Texas if politics will let them. so that isn't the question, it is where does Texas want to land and who wants them bad enough to start handing out extras, which is why I think ACC is the favorite, then B1G for the best combination of money/academics, or maybe PAC for combination of Academics & flexibility to bring friends

Second and Chalmers · Sep 7, 2016

IrishIllini said:
The B1G is incredibly effective at joining forces to secure large research grants from the Feds.

No they aren't. Those aren't formal relationships in any way, shape or form. B1G schools collaborate academically with non-B1G schools (including Texas) all the time.

The CIC is a nice little thing. They have conferences where people hobnob and network and share best practices on power point slides (I know, I've been there). That's it. That's all it is.

Which conference the football team joins has zero direct impact on research dollars flowing to Texas, Big Ten or otherwise.

Now, are there potential downstream benefits of aligning yourself with a craven professional sports organization that nonetheless effectively brands itself as this leafy academic consortium in a way that's appealing to talented prospective students in the Midwest who can raise your median entrance stats and game the US News Rankings, creating a virtuous cycle that eventually has positive knock-on effects to research dollars? Maybe. Potentially. Many a magician has made a nice living with smoke and mirrors.

But if all of that were the real motivation, why is Texas still slumming it with TCU and Kansas State and the like?