Bracketology

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#26      
Obviously a lot depends on what other teams do but say we beat Purdue and lose at Iowa…. What do we need to do to be a 3 seed? Get to BTT final?
My total guess? Just avoid losing on Friday in the BTT. This is our resume today:

Record: 22-7
NET Ranking: #15
Q1: 5-5
Q2: 5-2
Q3: 7-0
Q4: 5-0
Road/Neutral: 7-5
Bracket Matrix: #4 seed (second highest, so 2 spots behind a #3 seed)

And using the current default results for the BTT seed generator except having the Illini win out, these would be our potential next four games:

vs. #2 Purdue (Quad 1)
at #57 Iowa (Quad 1)
vs. #57 Iowa (Quad 2) or #94 Penn State (Quad 2) in BTT Quarterfinals
vs. #43 Nebraska (Quad 1) or #22 Michigan State (Quad 1) in BTT Semifinals

So let's assume we beat Purdue, win at Iowa, win our first BTT game and then lose on Saturday. That gives us this resume:

Record: 24-7
NET Ranking: ??? Almost certainly top 10...
Q1: 7-6
Q2: 6-2
Q3: 7-0
Q4: 5-0
Road/Neutral: 9-6

I have to think that is worthy of a #3 seed. Again, we have to win the games ... but we as long as we play well enough, we are actually somewhat lucky with how we finish the season. Tons of Q1 and Q2 opportunities. If we make it to Saturday in the BTT, we have a shot at a #2 seed depending on other chaos around the country.
 
#27      
Illinois Alabama would be a crazy matchup, but just looking at the top 20ish Kenpom there are a ton of teams that rely on their offense to win games. Obviously not as much as us and Bama, but there are quite a few matchups that could be pushing the high 80's or even 100's....Creighton, Purdue, Kentucky, Baylor, Duke, Arizona, BYU, etc are all teams willing to play at a fast pace and score 85+.

I wonder if this is just an odd year, or maybe this is the new norm due to the transfer portal? Elite shot makers are going to be the most coveted guys on the transfer market. Almost all these teams have a transfer as one of their best scorers.
You might be onto something. I can't remember the exact number but from 2008 to 2023 there were something like 30 teams with an adjO in the top 10 and adjD below 100. That averages out to about 2 per year.

There were 5 such teams last year.

Right now there are two (us and Bama). And Kentucky and Iowa are right on border.
 
#28      
Interesting that NET does not punish Auburn and Alabama for terrible Quad 1 records. Other than that it is hard to complain about Illini #15 ranking. #8 thru #15 look interchangeable.

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#29      
Interesting that NET does not punish Auburn and Alabama for terrible Quad 1 records. Other than that it is hard to complain about Illini #15 ranking. #8 thru #15 look interchangeable.

View attachment 31775
I think someone mentioned this earlier, but unfortunately blowing teams out seems to be actually quite beneficial in the NET Era ... and we have let a few teams back into the game that we should have blown out!
 
#30      
I think someone mentioned this earlier, but unfortunately blowing teams out seems to be actually quite beneficial in the NET Era ... and we have let a few teams back into the game that we should have blown out!
Yeah, there's a reason they've never released the NET formula. It is trash compared to other metrics. Everyone hated RPI and it definitely has major flaws, but basically they've swapped that out for a completely unthrottled efficiency system based on where teams stand. So it's going to be really interesting how some committee members use the NET vs other materials or numbers.

Long and the short of it your SOS is no longer or critical importance, margin of victory is a critical factor, and don't have any bad losses.

So back in the day playing 300+ ranked teams was awful and worthless as they'd tank your non-con SOS for minimal gain. Playing cupcakes in the 200s was the way to cheat the system. Now though, it might be the opposite. Get all the worst teams in the NCAA on your schedule, run up the score as much as you possibly can, and then play a couple games against for sure Top Tier opponents as part of your non-con and call it a day. The only question is whether anyone in the room takes a look at SOS as a tiebreaker for similar resumes.
 
#31      
Yeah margin of victory itself is capped, but efficiency margins that can be bolstered by running up the score is not capped. There has to be a way to discount portions of games that are won by a lot of points. Something like: if you win by 20+, we look at your efficiency over the first 28 minutes of that game, or up through the latest point that you eclipsed the 20-pt margin, if after the 12:00 mark of the 2nd half. I just think the basketball that happens while a team extends its lead from 25 - 40 (or whatever) is not a good approximation for most basketball. I have no idea and this is a total guess. It just seems like the NET is more impressed by playing way above expectations against an inferior opponent than it is with playing slightly above expectations against an evenly matched opponent. Like winning by 40 when you are favored by 24 is better than winning by 7 when favored by 2.
(Edit) Or, rather, you can reliably accomplish the former several times in the non-con, but the latter might only happen 2-3 times.
 
#32      

NASchamp

Atlanta
As others have mentioned, this time of year always gets interesting with teams hovering around a certain cutoff in the NET Rankings. Here is the Big Ten:

#2 Purdue: Both our away loss and hopefully our home win are safely Quad 1.
#22 Michigan State: Our home win remains Quad 1 as long as MSU stays in the top 30. Our road loss is safely Quad 1 no matter what.
#23 Wisconsin: Our road win in Madison is safely Quad 1.
#43 Nebraska: Our home win is safely Quad 2, AND (as of right now) Nebraska is a Quad 1 opponent on a neutral floor. Given the current standings, this is relevant to us.
#53 Northwestern: Our road loss is safely Quad 1, and our home win is safely Quad 2. However, if NU were to climb into the top 50, any win vs. them in Minneapolis would be Quad 1, as noted above.
#57 Iowa: At least for now, our home win is safely Quad 2, and what is hopefully a great win in Iowa City to end the year will be Quad 1.
#59 Ohio State: OSU would need to tumble 17 spots for our road win to not be Quad 1.
#74 Maryland: This one is scary. Not only do we want to keep the Quad 1 win in College Park, but we REALLY want to keep our Quad 2 loss in Champaign from becoming Quad 3 ... for both, we need Maryland in the top 75. UMD finishes at Penn State, so I am a little worried here! Be rooting for the Terps hard.
#77 Minnesota: Conversely, our home win vs. Minnesota can go from Quad 3 to Quad 2 if they can sneak into the top 75 by Selection Sunday. They get to play Indiana at home this week, but they finish at Northwestern. It would be really nice for Minnesota to finish 2-0, as NU is really unlikely to fall out of the top 75.
#91 Rutgers: It is very unlikely Rutgers gets back into the top 75, so our win in Piscataway will remain Quad 2, and our win in Champaign will remain Quad 3. However, it would be nice for them to remain in the top 100 so any potential BTT win could be Quad 2.
#94 Penn State: Our road loss is safely Quad 2, but see my comment about Rutgers RE: PSU remaining a Quad 2 opponent in the BTT.
#101 Indiana: Our win vs. them in Champaign will remain Quad 3, but again ... right now a slipup vs. them in the BTT is a BAD loss. It is in our best interests if as many Big Ten teams as possible are in the top 100.
#131 Michigan: Lol, I have lost the energy to type by the time I got all the way down to Juwan's squad! You shouldn't count your victories against Michigan as anything too special, and you should NEVER lose to them ... so their NET Ranking is irrelevant.
This is great. Laminating and securing to my belt loop with a string like a football coach for reference while watching games this week and next.
 
#33      
Good catch! Another VERY important reminder to all of those people who might not be "impressed" with our wins or whatever ... we are ONLY judged on a curve. We have to have one of the 12 best resumes (more or less) to get a #3 seed. According to this, we are close! Needless to say that getting two more massive Quad 1 wins this week would probably do the trick!

Here are the teams above us and their games coming up this week (using NET Rankings) for those wishing to root against 'em!

#2 SEEDS
#5 Tennessee - at #47 South Carolina (Q1), vs. #20 Kentucky (Q1)
#9 North Carolina - vs. #125 Notre Dame (Q3), at #10 Duke (Q1)
#14 Marquette - vs. #3 UConn (Q1), at #61 Xavier (Q1)
#8 Iowa State - vs. #12 BYU (Q1), at #73 Kansas State (Q1)

#3 SEEDS
#18 Kansas - vs. #73 Kansas State (Q2), at #1 Houston (Q1)
#13 Baylor - vs. #27 Texas (Q1), at #42 Texas Tech (Q1)
#10 Duke - at #80 NC State (Q2), vs. #9 North Carolina (Q1)
#7 Alabama - at #33 Florida (Q1), vs. #121 Arkansas (Q3)

#4 SEEDS
#11 Creighton - at #26 Villanova (Q1)
#15 ILLINOIS - vs. #2 Purdue (Q1), at #57 Iowa (Q1)
#6 Auburn - at #151 Missouri (Q3), vs. #104 Georgia (Q3)
#19 San Diego State - at #82 UNLV (Q2), vs. #24 Boise State (Q1)

I know the bracket matrix isn't gospel, but let's just assume it's truly where we stand in the eyes of the Committee for the sake of simplicity. These would be some interesting questions that stick out to me:

1. If Creighton wins at Villanova (Quad 1) but we go 2-0, would we jump them? We'd be 24-7, and they would be 23-8. They're currently 4 spots above us in the NET rankings, and we would be at 7 Quad 1 wins vs. their 8. They still have two "marquee" wins (UConn and Marquette) compared to our one (Purdue).

2. How far can Kansas slide?? Their #18 NET Ranking is theoretically in line with a #5 seed. If KU beats KSU at home but loses at Houston, we would be tied with them for Quad 1 wins and one behind them for Quad 2 wins. We'd also have a significantly better road record (6-5 vs. 3-7). If they lose to Kansas State (again), then it's really game on to pass them...

3. I know they are the Committee's darlings, but I would SERIOUSLY have to believe we pass up Duke if we win out and they lose out - something that is a lot more realistic than it sounds at face value. We'd have two more Quad 1 wins, a better overall record, likely a very similar NET Ranking and an equal road/neutral record.

on creighton..do we think their 2nd marquee win (marquette) would have a big asterisk? Not only were they missing their best guard (kolek), they were also missing their best big (ighodaro) who avg 15 and 8 and is as high as a first rounder on mock drafts.
 
#34      
One other note on Duke...their Georgia tech loss is currently Q2....but GT is 134th in NET. A two spot drop turns that into the dreaded Q3. Of course we have to hope on our side MD holds up too ha.

And not to hate too hard on duke, but theyve lost to 121 and 134. We havent lost to a team outside of the top 100 (PSU being the closest at 94)
 
#35      
One other note on Duke...their Georgia tech loss is currently Q2....but GT is 134th in NET. A two spot drop turns that into the dreaded Q3. Of course we have to hope on our side MD holds up too ha.

And not to hate too hard on duke, but theyve lost to 121 and 134. We havent lost to a team outside of the top 100 (PSU being the closest at 94)
It is crazy that according to the Net Rankings a loss at home to Maryland at 74 equates to a loss to Georgia Tech at 134 away. Maybe someone with deeper analytics access can answer if the home vs away advantage is really worth 50 spots in the Net??
 
#36      
It is crazy that according to the Net Rankings a loss at home to Maryland at 74 equates to a loss to Georgia Tech at 134 away. Maybe someone with deeper analytics access can answer if the home vs away advantage is really worth 50 spots in the Net??
No 100% sure this is what you are asking, but the difference between home and away categorizations is very, very wide:

Home: Quad 1 #1-30, Quad 2 #31-75, Quad 3 #76-160, Quad 4 #161-353
Away: Quad 1 #1-75, Quad 2 #76-135, Quad 3 #135-240, Quad 4 #241-353

So the worst team you could beat at home and still have it be Quad 2 is almost #74 Maryland ... while the worst team you could beat on the road and have it be Quad 2 is #135 UMass Lowell, lol...
 
#37      
It is crazy that according to the Net Rankings a loss at home to Maryland at 74 equates to a loss to Georgia Tech at 134 away. Maybe someone with deeper analytics access can answer if the home vs away advantage is really worth 50 spots in the Net??
No not explainable. The NET is terrible and needs another fix from the atrocious RPI. For one the Quad thing is way too wide to be useful. Octals maybe?
 
#38      
No not explainable. The NET is terrible and needs another fix from the atrocious RPI. For one the Quad thing is way too wide to be useful. Octals maybe?
I think some aspects of the Quad thing actually kind of make sense ... beating a top 75 team on the road was probably an underappreciated feat before the NET Rankings. However, it's WAY too hard on home games. Beating the #31 team in the country at home should still be seen as a Quad 1 win.
 
#39      
It is crazy that according to the Net Rankings a loss at home to Maryland at 74 equates to a loss to Georgia Tech at 134 away. Maybe someone with deeper analytics access can answer if the home vs away advantage is really worth 50 spots in the Net??
From the kenpom metrics, this seems fairly accurate.

Over the years, the metrics often seem to say that playing at home is generally worth 3.5-4pts. That is a 7-8pt swing if you go play at their place instead. The difference in kenpom between the teams ranked 75th and 135th is roughly 8.2pts. (129th is 8pts behind 125th)
 
#40      
If Quad 1 wins actually mean anything then how is Auburn, 1-7 in Q1 games, at #7 NET. I'm sure the answer is that EM weighs much more heavily than Quad wins/losses. And coaches have figured this out. [as others have said]
 
#41      
I think some aspects of the Quad thing actually kind of make sense ... beating a top 75 team on the road was probably an underappreciated feat before the NET Rankings. However, it's WAY too hard on home games. Beating the #31 team in the country at home should still be seen as a Quad 1 win.
I hear you. For me having teams 75 and 135 comparable is a non-starter for me. I don't care where the game is played. In the current kenpom the 135 team can't win a game. They are below 500. The 75 team is 20-9. smh
 
#43      

danielb927

Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
It is crazy that according to the Net Rankings a loss at home to Maryland at 74 equates to a loss to Georgia Tech at 134 away. Maybe someone with deeper analytics access can answer if the home vs away advantage is really worth 50 spots in the Net??

From the kenpom metrics, this seems fairly accurate.

Over the years, the metrics often seem to say that playing at home is generally worth 3.5-4pts. That is a 7-8pt swing if you go play at their place instead. The difference in kenpom between the teams ranked 75th and 135th is roughly 8.2pts. (129th is 8pts behind 125th)

Small caveat - while the difference between KenPom 75th and 135th is an adjEM of 8.2, this represents points per 100 possessions. Since an average game is only around 70 possessions, the difference is more like 6 points per game. That means that a road game @135th is actually a point or two harder than a home game against 75th.

Otherwise, absolutely. But it's also important to note that this depends on where one is looking in the spectrum of teams. In other words, while playing #75 at home and #155 away would be similarly difficult, playing #5 at home would be much tougher than #85 away - even though the teams are the same number of spots apart.

This is a primary limitation of the way NET is presented. Rather than an actual metric rating (something that can be compared between any two teams), the NET values shown are a ranking (which says nothing about the difference between teams). If we're going to group wins and losses by impressiveness (or lack thereof), I would much rather take the underlying rating of the opponent and combine it with home/away advantage to give each game a "difficulty" score. This is kind of what the quad system is meant to do, but in a very crude way.

Now, in practice it's probably not a huge deal. The distribution of D-I teams is likely pretty similar from year to year, and the Quad system is set up to roughly adjust for this where it matters (against good teams). In addition, the NET is not entirely predictive - there is some result-oriented portion that skews things towards luckier teams - so using it to come up with a true "difficulty score" would still be flawed. Lastly, the committee has time to discuss the nuances of every team's team sheet to get beyond the simple "quad records", at least to some extent.

But still, there are non-negligible inaccuracies there that seem... easily fixable. For instance, right now the #30 team and #75 team are only about 4.5 pts/game apart. This means the worst possible home Q1 game is 2-3 points easier than the worst possible road Q1 game. And yet, they show up on the Q1A part of our team sheet like this, where our win vs. MSU looks much better than our win @MD or even @OSU.

1709590420628.png



TL;DR - the advantage of home vs. away can't be said to be "worth X spots in the NET" without saying where in the NET you're looking. It varies between:
- Somewhere around 10 spots (against top teams)
- Over 100 spots (in the middle of D-I)
- As few as 3-4 spots (if you happen to be playing Mississippi Valley State).

AND

If anything, the Quad system is still under-valuing the difficulty of road vs. home games, at least at the Q1A and Q1 boundaries.
 
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#44      

Illini2010-11

Sugar Grove
If Quad 1 wins actually mean anything then how is Auburn, 1-7 in Q1 games, at #7 NET. I'm sure the answer is that EM weighs much more heavily than Quad wins/losses. And coaches have figured this out. [as others have said]
I think it is because Auburn, when winning, has largely won by significant margins. when looking at their schedule, of their 22 wins, the closest win was by 11 points (including an 18 point win vs Alabama...their sole Quad 1 win). That is insane efficiency when winning. When they have lost, the margin was much smaller (5 of their 7 losses by single digits, four of which were true road games). That is going to vastly make their NET much higher. The committee will likely take the NET and their Quad 1 wins/losses when seeding.

As reference, Gonzaga and St. Mary's are 16 and 17, respectively. Gonzaga was in last 4 in territory in many brackets pre-Saturday, and St. Mary's is a 6 seed at best. NET is an important tool, but it is not the biggest weight when the committee selects and seeds teams.
 
#45      

NASchamp

Atlanta
No not explainable. The NET is terrible and needs another fix from the atrocious RPI. For one the Quad thing is way too wide to be useful. Octals maybe?
I for one look forward to the day we can be talking about how many Octal 1 wins we have and how we haven’t had an Octal 7 or 8 loss in several years 😂
 
#46      
Parsed Sports has us a 4 in the Midwest, eventually losing to UConn. It's a live bracket so likely will change after games today. I don't want to face UConn but eventually you have to play a top team, I guess.
 
#47      
I think it is because Auburn, when winning, has largely won by significant margins. when looking at their schedule, of their 22 wins, the closest win was by 11 points (including an 18 point win vs Alabama...their sole Quad 1 win). That is insane efficiency when winning. When they have lost, the margin was much smaller (5 of their 7 losses by single digits, four of which were true road games). That is going to vastly make their NET much higher. The committee will likely take the NET and their Quad 1 wins/losses when seeding.

As reference, Gonzaga and St. Mary's are 16 and 17, respectively. Gonzaga was in last 4 in territory in many brackets pre-Saturday, and St. Mary's is a 6 seed at best. NET is an important tool, but it is not the biggest weight when the committee selects and seeds teams.
I agree for the most part. Auburn and other teams/coaches run up the score on weaker opponents. That's what I said. EM is basically adjusted scoring margin btw. But here we obsess over Quad this and Quad that. The NET is fairly accurate at predicting seeds in the top 10-12, because it is very similar to kenpom rankings. After that the NET is ok down to about 50 or so. Then it gets worse at predicting anything.
 
#48      
Posters continue to be confused about quadrant victories and the NET rating.

Quadrant victories are based on teams NET rating, not the other way around. NET rating is a measure of adjusted efficiency, taking into account margin of victory against a team factored against how that opponent performs in the rest of their games.
 
#49      
Posters continue to be confused about quadrant victories and the NET rating.

Quadrant victories are based on teams NET rating, not the other way around. NET rating is a measure of adjusted efficiency, taking into account margin of victory against a team factored against how that opponent performs in the rest of their games.
I'm not confused if you are referencing me. I am just stating facts. And the win percentage of your opponents is just another stupid thing the NET and formerly the RPI does. EDIT: Of course the poorly implemented NET rankings determine the quad positions of your opponents which may or may not effect the teams seed in the tournament.
 
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#50      
Posters continue to be confused about quadrant victories and the NET rating.

Quadrant victories are based on teams NET rating, not the other way around. NET rating is a measure of adjusted efficiency, taking into account margin of victory against a team factored against how that opponent performs in the rest of their games.
If I am not mistaken, people largely understand this. They just take issue with how the Committee/NCAA/whatever are using the NET Rankings to define the Quads. For example, I find the idea that beating the #76 team at home is roughly analogous to beating the #136 team in their gym to be quite suspect. I think they would do well to "tighten up" the differences for home, away and neutral, with the answer being to be less harsh on teams for home victories - because I do like rewarding teams for winning away from home, where the NCAA Tournament is played ... I just don't think the jump down from 75 to 30 for that difference is reasonable.
 
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