Bruce Weber resigns as Kansas State coach

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#76      

ChiefGritty

ChiefGritty
Chicago, IL
ChiefGritty
Weber made a lot of mistakes here, isn't half the genius he was initially made out to be, nor the put-upon saint he was later held out as to justify his failings. He richly deserved to be fired and we're much better off without him.

It's easier to forgive his culpability in failing to capitalize on our magical 05 run now that we're back where we belong, so best to just let bygones be bygones.

I spent too much of my youth staring down the abyss of why he couldn't make it work here.
 
#78      

The Sprouting Divot

The Sprouting Divot
Invisible and Bulletproof
Miracle Mile
The Sprouting Divot
Haven't read the whole thread, but I have never really understood the ire that some Illinois fans have for him. It didn't work out here, but we all know how complex the situation was, and I don't think Weber could have done anything differently than he did while still remaining faithful to his values - both in terms of coaching/style of play, but also with recruiting.

I truly believe that he could have had a small dynasty going at SIU by now if he had never left. I don't think it would be on par with Gonzaga's success or anything, but I think he could have had his teams in the tournament every year (or at least much more often than not), and would probably make a run at the S16 every so often. I think his style of play, player development, and recruiting are most compatible at a school where fan expectations are not unreasonable (so that rules out most of the P5), and where he'd be expected and encouraged to build his team with four-year players learning his system over time.

I hope he gets another shot somewhere else, but I don't know that he's got the longevity left to really build what I think he's capable of, even if he does land in the precise type of environment that's just right for him.

Give 'em hell, Bruce.
 
#79      

ptgrd23

ptgrd23
ptgrd23
BAM terminated at KSU. Weber is nice example of Peter principle. Of course hope springs eternal so KSU assumed something would change when he arrived there. Weber was correctly slotted at SIU. Groce and Beckman were also good examples. There are of course exceptions like Underwood.

......"The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence."

The Peter Principle is thus based on the paradoxical idea that competent employees will continue to be promoted, but at some point will be promoted into positions for which they are incompetent, and they will then remain in those positions because of the fact that they do not demonstrate any further competence that would get them recognized for additional promotion......

www.investopedia.com

The Peter Principle: What It Is and How to Overcome It

The Peter Principle theorizes that people in a firm will be promoted up to a point where they are no longer qualified, leaving a company full of incompetent employees.
www.investopedia.com www.investopedia.com
 
#80      

thrillini

T
thrillini
skyIdub said:
Let's just all take a moment and reflect back on his moooooooooooves.

bruceweber-kstate.gif
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Whoever created this gif deserves a lifetime achievement award, just for the majesty of this one creation. The moment when Bruce snaps his mouth shut, combined with the simultaneous chin tuck is just *chef's kiss*.

Not a perfect one, but a very good coach. I personally hold a lot of respect for what he accomplished and how he accomplished it. It was definitely time to go when he left here; I'm sure that's true in Manhattan now. Wish him well in whatever future he moves on to.
 
#82      

GForce

GForce
GForce
His recruiting fail after reaching the nat'l title game is one of the greatest mysteries in sports. But hey, he did save the Custard Cup.
 
#86      

alaskaillini

A
alaskaillini
AEX said:
I think framing a lack of diplomacy as an inability to be dishonest is a rather diplomatic thing to do. Bruce’s tendency to honest about the shortcomings of others or his situation always struck
me as complaining and self-preserving. If you want the antithesis of this approach, look to Underwood. He’s plenty honest with his guys, but he always highlights their strengths and never complains about the hand he’s dealt. I respect the hell out of him for that.
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I love BU, but to be honest he has not yet faced any real adversity as a head coach. There was some griping in is first two less than stellar years here, but he was in the building phase (he made a few comments about culture and toughness in those years although I can't remember him calling out anyone in particular, at least not expressly). Hope it never happens but you will really see what he is made of if and when he has a couple of bad years.
You can avoid a lot of problems by recruiting character over talent, but you still need talent. Think Bruce had to occasionally compromise some on the character side of things to get talent. Think BU does not have to do that, at least not now.
 
#87      

aaeismacgychel

A
aaeismacgychel
ChiefGritty said:
The dirty secret of Illinois basketball between Dee and Kofi is that we always had the players.
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I still think the entire trajectory of his career and our team would have been different if the Jamar Smith incident never occurred. People point to Jereme Richmond as the downfall, but that event I think was the beginning of the end. Kid was the purest shooter I had ever seen- I still wonder what would have happened if he had just made better decisions that night. That said, as a coach you have to deal with situations out of your control and sadly Weber wasn't quite able to.
 
#88      

wpr

wpr
wpr
Sorry to see Bruce step down. K State was a good fit for him and his team took it to Kansas from time to time. Hope he gets to coach and get 500 wins.
 
#89      

IlliniShelt

I
IlliniShelt
alaskaillini said:
I love BU, but to be honest he has not yet faced any real adversity as a head coach. There was some griping in is first two less than stellar years here, but he was in the building phase (he made a few comments about culture and toughness in those years although I can't remember him calling out anyone in particular, at least not expressly). Hope it never happens but you will really see what he is made of if and when he has a couple of bad years.
You can avoid a lot of problems by recruiting character over talent, but you still need talent. Think Bruce had to occasionally compromise some on the character side of things to get talent. Think BU does not have to do that, at least not now.
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Is losing all your assistants in the same off-season not adverse?
 
#90      

BashCtIllini

BashCtIllini
BashCtIllini
The contempt for Weber is pretty obvious. He was handed a Ferrari and turned it into a Mustang.

We could see the green pastures in '89 before some dbag in Iowa screwed it up. Then again in the early 2000s we could see the promised land. Wins were pouring in, big time recruits were interested. Weber looked like he was continuing what Lon started and Self took even further, then wham. It all fell apart.

I think the class of 2007 is what killed Weber. We had Eric Gordon, it seemed there was a good chance that was going to really help us land Derrick Rose. Then another dbag snaked us for Gordon and that, along with cheating, took Rose off the board. In the meantime, we probably had a strong chance with Etwaun Moore but we stopped pursuing him because of Gordon. Then you have the blunder of taking Bill Cole instead of Robbie Hummel, and Evan Turner who I seem to remember chose to go to OSU because his dad was in Columbus and we just took hit after hit after hit in that class. What could have been an all time great class, and no telling what they could have accomplished turned into an ok class that ultimately won 1 NCAA tournament game.

Add in Self almost vindictively going after every Chicago recruit, and Weber could never bring in the talent to keep us where we were before him. That leads a lot of people to say you ruined our program. I personally don't have any contempt for him, but you can't really argue he squandered a great opportunity to recruit at a high level following the title game and left the program worse than he found it.
 
#93      

RockfordIllini

R
RockfordIllini
I think folks are conflating 2 different things: 1. “Coach” being purely X’s and O’s And 2 “coach” as figurehead/CEO of a multimillion dollar program.

Bruce is clearly above average at #1 and that’s probably an understatement. S16 at 3 different schools shows he’s got the chops. Where he is below average to bad is at #2. Doesn’t have the charisma you’d want in a CEO type, not a great motivator or recruiter and only clicks with certain personality types.

Amazingly I think his improved recruiting here led to his downfall. He had pretty good success with the Meachums/Fraziers and the scrappy 3 star types. But of course a team full of scrappy 3 stars has a limited ceiling. And when we slipped from routinely winning conference titles and playing in the second weekend, he heard the chatter that he needed to recruit better so brought in Jerrance who is great at telling talented kids what they want to hear, but created mixed messages and led to chemistry issues and ultimately him losing the team.

A good CEO type either sticks with his types of players or manages the politics of bringing in more talented players and checking egos, etc. That’s not Bruce’s strong suit. Probably why he was an assistant for so long.

But has had a lot of success. And as folks have said he’s a good person and he’s tried to do things the right way. Should have plenty of $$ for a nice retirement or may have another opportunity. Wish him well.
 
#95      

Longtimelurker

L
Longtimelurker
ptgrd23 said:
BAM terminated at KSU. Weber is nice example of Peter principle. Of course hope springs eternal so KSU assumed something would change when he arrived there. Weber was correctly slotted at SIU. Groce and Beckman were also good examples. There are of course exceptions like Underwood.

......"The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence."

The Peter Principle is thus based on the paradoxical idea that competent employees will continue to be promoted, but at some point will be promoted into positions for which they are incompetent, and they will then remain in those positions because of the fact that they do not demonstrate any further competence that would get them recognized for additional promotion......

www.investopedia.com

The Peter Principle: What It Is and How to Overcome It

The Peter Principle theorizes that people in a firm will be promoted up to a point where they are no longer qualified, leaving a company full of incompetent employees.
www.investopedia.com www.investopedia.com
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Yes, clearly incompetent. Kansas State has won 2 conference championships in 40 years. Both by Bruce Weber.
 
#96      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
gibb52 said:
When BAM has an AC that can coach offense, and another AC who can manage most of the recruiting so that he has players that fit his system he does really good things. He has never been good at coaching offense and his decisions on what players to offer and when to offer them has always been his downfall. A good guy stuck in the frequently smelly sewer of big time CBB. Best of luck to him.
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I don't think that's fair. He's somewhere in the middle of the pack when it comes to coaching, and that's largely because clearly he has some coaching chops that help make up for his lack of recruiting chops. His offenses were really a mixed back, but they were pretty nice when they had the right personnel. I think the bigger issue was his inability to recruit high-caliber players that fit his scheme.
 
#98      

sacraig

sacraig
The desert
sacraig
ChiefGritty said:
The dirty secret of Illinois basketball between Dee and Kofi is that we always had the players.
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Sure. It was a question of (a) whether they fit the system our coach was running at the time, and (b) were they properly coached/developed to play within said system.
 
#99      

Big Jack

Big Jack
Decatur
Big Jack
I liked Bruce he was a good person just not who and what was needed at Illinois but Guenther is to blame for hiring him and not finding a better coach. Wish him nothing but the best in the future.
 
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