Chicago Cubs 2021 season

#201      

Illiniaaron

I
Geneseo, IL
Illiniaaron
champaignchris said:
You’re kind of missing the forest from all the trees on my argument. I’m just using bWAR as an all-encompassing aggregate number. Use whatever counting stat you’d like.

The point is that Sosa was an elite player for only about a decade. The guys that get voted into the Hall are elite for longer than that as was the case with Walker, Jeter, and Chipper Jones.

Whether it’s the right or wrong way to evaluate a player is beside the point. It’s how the writers vote.

The Veterans committee is a lot more accepting of guys with briefer peaks. Ted Lyons who got in in the last class via the veteran vote is a case in point there. If Sosa eventually gets into the Hall, it’s the Veterans committee that will put him there. That’s how Santo eventually got in and he had a similar relatively brief peak.
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We can agree to disagree. It seems like you are using WAR to exclude Sosa from the HOF, and justify Walker. If you look at Walker's career, he had a pretty good 13 year stretch but there are several years in there that it would be a major stretch to call "elite." He had some pretty average seasons in there. And I disagree also that I think a lot of guys who were dominant for a decade or so get in, it seems like a common subjective measurement that the HOF voters use. Look at Sandberg-he was not elite for more than a decade. My point is that if you are letting Santo or Mazerowski in, just to pick a couple, you can't keep Sosa out. And if he is being excluded for steroids, (which he is), we can all wink and nod that he was probably using, and he had a clownish appearance before Congress, but I don't think there is the smoking gun evidence for him like there is for Bonds, Clemmens, or Palmeiro.
 
#202      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Illiniaaron said:
We can agree to disagree. It seems like you are using WAR to exclude Sosa from the HOF, and justify Walker. If you look at Walker's career, he had a pretty good 13 year stretch but there are several years in there that it would be a major stretch to call "elite." He had some pretty average seasons in there. And I disagree also that I think a lot of guys who were dominant for a decade or so get in, it seems like a common subjective measurement that the HOF voters use. Look at Sandberg-he was not elite for more than a decade. My point is that if you are letting Santo or Mazerowski in, just to pick a couple, you can't keep Sosa out. And if he is being excluded for steroids, (which he is), we can all wink and nod that he was probably using, and he had a clownish appearance before Congress, but I don't think there is the smoking gun evidence for him like there is for Bonds, Clemmens, or Palmeiro.
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Larry Walker was a better hitter than Sosa. Even when adjusting for park factors. He had a career .965 OPS (which doesn't take into account where he played) and a 141 OPS+ (which does). Sosa was .878 and 128.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that Walker was an all-time great defensive outfielder while Sammy was just pretty good during the first half of his career and downright bad during the second half of his career.

Sosa might deserve to be in the Hall, but Walker definitely deserved to be in the Hall before him and there are about 5 other right fielders who aren't in the Hall who also deserve to be in the Hall before Sosa. (Shoeless Joe not included.) That said, there are at least a dozen more right fielders that are already in the Hall that shouldn't be in there if Sammy isn't, which is one of the reasons I think that Sosa will eventually get in.
 
#203      

Illiniaaron

I
Geneseo, IL
Illiniaaron
champaignchris said:
Larry Walker was a better hitter than Sosa. Even when adjusting for park factors. He had a career .965 OPS (which doesn't take into account where he played) and a 141 OPS+ (which does). Sosa was .878 and 128.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that Walker was an all-time great defensive outfielder while Sammy was just pretty good during the first half of his career and downright bad during the second half of his career.

Sosa might deserve to be in the Hall, but Walker definitely deserved to be in the Hall before him and there are about 5 other right fielders who aren't in the Hall who also deserve to be in the Hall before Sosa. (Shoeless Joe not included.) That said, there are at least a dozen more right fielders that are already in the Hall that shouldn't be in there if Sammy isn't, which is one of the reasons I think that Sosa will eventually get in.
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I never said Walker shouldn't be in. But I think if he's in then Sosa is deserving. The point about players having to be elite for more than a decade to get in just isn't true. And I don't think the guys from the steroid era are going to get in unless its years and years from now.
 
#206      

IlliniFaninHoosierLand

IlliniFaninHoosierLand
IlliniFaninHoosierLand
GilThorpe said:
11 hits today!

lets see if they can get 8+ hits for a few games in a row, and not just against the Bucs!
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Heard someone on the Score mention today that if the team hits .330 in this series, then the team batting average will be over .200.

Going into today only the A's had a worse team batting average and I think only the Braves and Brewers had drawn fewer walks.
 
#207      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
1 for 23 with RISP for the series. Pathetic.

I think this team has about four more series to show some life with the bats before the “open for business” sign goes up in the front office.
 
#208      

suburbanILLINI

S
suburbanILLINI
champaignchris said:
1 for 23 with RISP for the series. Pathetic.

I think this team has about four more series to show some life with the bats before the “open for business” sign goes up in the front office.
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It's good that none of the "core" got signed to extensions as the offense has been putrid for a long time now. This season and next is where Jed is going to make or break his legacy
 
#210      

Ramrod2010

R
Ramrod2010
GilThorpe said:
We stink.

Im so tired of everyone swinging for the fences every at bat. Whatever happened to situational hitting ?
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#214      

champaignchris

C
champaignchris
Just heard a mind-blowing star on WSCR. The Cubs have just had the fewest hits over a 10-game stretch in team history going back to 1901.

Yes. It’s really that bad.
 
#216      

CubsIlliniFan

C
CubsIlliniFan
champaignchris said:
Larry Walker was a better hitter than Sosa. Even when adjusting for park factors. He had a career .965 OPS (which doesn't take into account where he played) and a 141 OPS+ (which does). Sosa was .878 and 128.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that Walker was an all-time great defensive outfielder while Sammy was just pretty good during the first half of his career and downright bad during the second half of his career.

Sosa might deserve to be in the Hall, but Walker definitely deserved to be in the Hall before him and there are about 5 other right fielders who aren't in the Hall who also deserve to be in the Hall before Sosa. (Shoeless Joe not included.) That said, there are at least a dozen more right fielders that are already in the Hall that shouldn't be in there if Sammy isn't, which is one of the reasons I think that Sosa will eventually get in.
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I am a stickler about the Hall. It is not all about numbers. Numbers play a part but its about greatness. This is why I was staunchly against both Lee Smith and Trevor Hoffman getting in. Neither had standout moments. The Save is the cheapest stat in baseball. With a 3 run lead and you can still get a save? Nope. Both will be remembered for failures in boing time situations. Hoffman failed in 2007 to close out playoff clinching games 161 and 163 in 2007. Lee Smith gave up Steve Garvey’s homer in the 84 NLCS. Yes there are isolated incidents but Bruce Sutter was special, Gossage, Fingers and Rivera were all special. Nothing special with Smith and Hoffman. Walker was a 5 tool player. I could see him getting in. Sosa? Well, he is borderline. I remember calling Phil Rogers on day after he had the audacity to vote for Harold Baines. Harold Baines? Thus is the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Pretty Good. . I think that the writers have slipped some with some of their votes. I was a staunch supporter of Jack Morris getting in. Best pitcher of the 80’s and the only pitcher who anchored three different franchises to WS Championships and his Game 7 10 inning gem ranks as one of the best performances since Mickey Lolich in game 7 in 68.
 
#218      

CubsIlliniFan

C
CubsIlliniFan
champaignchris said:
Just heard a mind-blowing star on WSCR. The Cubs have just had the fewest hits over a 10-game stretch in team history going back to 1901.

Yes. It’s really that bad.
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That was my worry as we do not have a guy who puts fear in our lineup. Too many free swingers. Our pitching is what I expected, better than last year. But the hitting is worse than last year which is concerning. AA pitched a solid game last night but we could not get the offense going to help him. Hopefully, we will wake up soon and start hitting the ball.
 
#223      

Illiniaaron

I
Geneseo, IL
Illiniaaron
4 hits and 12 K's today. One guy I really question is Happ, how much longer does he have to stink to prove he can't hit big league pitching?