Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#51      
jamarvelous31
sbillini said:
Oh, and on the notion of these coaches are overpaid, if you really had an issue with it and really thought it was unfair, you could fix that really quickly in one simple way - stop watching/attending. That would solve the problem real quick. Yet, here we are, so obviously none of us on this board have that much of an issue with it.
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Or how about a sane position: I don't begrudge them from getting wildly wealthy & doing what's best for them.

It's just reasonable to expect them to do the same for the employees they're leading.

I'm a manager and don't throw a fit when one of my folks gets a promotion, even it makes my job more difficult.
 
#52      
The Sprouting Divot
jamarvelous31 said:
Or how about a sane position: I don't begrudge them from getting wildly wealthy & doing what's best for them.

It's just reasonable to expect them to do the same for the employees they're leading.

I'm a manager and don't throw a fit when one of my folks gets a promotion, even it makes my job more difficult.
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I hope you work until you're a hundred years old - retiring any sooner is a real chickenshit move.
 
#53      
WyattEarp
The Sprouting Divot said:
I hope you work until you're a hundred years old - retiring any sooner is a real chickenshit move.
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Argue Grumpy Old Men GIF by Laff
 
#54      
the juiceman cometh
The Sprouting Divot said:
I hope you work until you're a hundred years old - retiring any sooner is a real chickenshit move.
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I don't think anyone has a problem with Larranaga retiring.

It's the fact that he's essentially bashing his former players on the way out the door and blaming them for his retirement, and the fact that this is being used as "evidence" that players getting NIL is a bad thing. When he does that, pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who made millions coaching complaining about "money ruining the sport" is fair game.

Likewise, I'm sure there were college sports fans who were uncomfortable with the amount of money coaches were making before NIL, but not many, and they weren't very vocal on this board. Now that players are getting NIL, the "money is ruining the sport" takes are everywhere. I think it's fair to point out that disconnect when this topic comes up.
 
#56      
OrangeBlue98
the juiceman cometh said:
I don't think anyone has a problem with Larranaga retiring.

It's the fact that he's essentially bashing his former players on the way out the door and blaming them for his retirement, and the fact that this is being used as "evidence" that players getting NIL is a bad thing. When he does that, pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who made millions coaching complaining about "money ruining the sport" is fair game.

Likewise, I'm sure there were college sports fans who were uncomfortable with the amount of money coaches were making before NIL, but not many, and they weren't very vocal on this board. Now that players are getting NIL, the "money is ruining the sport" takes are everywhere. I think it's fair to point out that disconnect when this topic comes up.
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Maybe I'm giving him too much benefit of the doubt, but I found Larranaga's comments more of an indictment of the system than of any individual players.

Like I've said, I'm completely in favor of players being compensated for their name, image, and likeness recognition that comes with their recognition as collegiate athletes. Caitlin Clark signs endorsement deals with State Farm and Nike? All for it. An Illini player or group of players does a series of TV commercials for a local car dealership or restaurant and is compensated by the business? Yes, please - I see this a lot with Drake players on TV and radio where I live. Kylan Boswell wants to run a summer basketball camp for kids in the Champaign area and pocket the net proceeds for it? Absolutely. But that's not where we are right now. The vast majority of what we are seeing is money going into a "collective" and then being paid out to players. It's basically professional sports right now. I'm obviously still watching, but I'm just saying the system as it's running now wasn't really the idea when the idea of name, image, and likeness was developed.
 
#58      
the juiceman cometh
OrangeBlue98 said:
Maybe I'm giving him too much benefit of the doubt, but I found Larranaga's comments more of an indictment of the system than of any individual players.

Like I've said, I'm completely in favor of players being compensated for their name, image, and likeness recognition that comes with their recognition as collegiate athletes. Caitlin Clark signs endorsement deals with State Farm and Nike? All for it. An Illini player or group of players does a series of TV commercials for a local car dealership or restaurant and is compensated by the business? Yes, please - I see this a lot with Drake players on TV and radio where I live. Kylan Boswell wants to run a summer basketball camp for kids in the Champaign area and pocket the net proceeds for it? Absolutely. But that's not where we are right now. The vast majority of what we are seeing is money going into a "collective" and then being paid out to players. It's basically professional sports right now. I'm obviously still watching, but I'm just saying the system as it's running now wasn't really the idea when the idea of name, image, and likeness was developed.
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I agree the NIL system is not ideal. We are where we are because the NCAA did everything in its power to keep players away from the ever-increasing money making machine that revenue college sports became. Ideally, players would be able to be paid directly the way coaches are, and could unionize, and could negotiate contracts.

Guess what - that's not what Larranaga wants. The system he's indicting is the one in which players have options, and are able to be compensated. He longs for the days when players had to sit out a year to transfer, and could only get paid under the table, for paltry figures compared to what they'd get on the open market. In that system, coaches had all the power. So yeah, of course he liked that more.

NIL is the way it is because the players provide a valuable service and NIL is the only open avenue to compensation. The service they provide is on the field/court but the rules still don't allow them to be paid directly for what they do there. As Dr. Ian Malcolm once said "Life finds a way." Money is the same. If someone can do a thing that provides value, someone else will find a way to get money to that person so they can harness that value.

And let me just remind you what was happening in college basketball before NIL. Top prospects were increasingly going to the G-League or abroad or to upstart leagues like Overtime Elite, rather than going to college. Players were going into the NBA draft early, even if they knew they'd only be 2nd rounders, just to start getting paid. There were even players who were foregoing further NCAA eligibility to start their overseas careers, like Leron Black. Pre-NIL, there's a good chance a guy like Cooper Flagg goes G-League. I think it's very unlikely that KJ would have gone the college route if not for NIL. He would have instead gotten paid to play for Barcelona and gone into the draft directly from there, like most Euro players did pre-NIL. For all the complaints about NIL, there is no doubt that it has increased the talent level available to NCAA coaches.
 
#59      
OrangeBlue98
the juiceman cometh said:
And let me just remind you what was happening in college basketball before NIL. Top prospects were increasingly going to the G-League or abroad or to upstart leagues like Overtime Elite, rather than going to college. Players were going into the NBA draft early, even if they knew they'd only be 2nd rounders, just to start getting paid. There were even players who were foregoing further NCAA eligibility to start their overseas careers, like Leron Black. Pre-NIL, there's a good chance a guy like Cooper Flagg goes G-League. I think it's very unlikely that KJ would have gone the college route if not for NIL. He would have instead gotten paid to play for Barcelona and gone into the draft directly from there, like most Euro players did pre-NIL. For all the complaints about NIL, there is no doubt that it has increased the talent level available to NCAA coaches.
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I don't disagree with any of this. But players freely transferring does seem to make a mockery of the academic side of this. I realize this is not new territory, as we all know Kentucky's usual crop of one and done freshmen never went to class after they met their eligibility needs. How are the credits these players are allegedly earning transferring when players are going to 3-4 different schools in their collegiate careers? I say that because as long as there are still names of universities on these uniforms, there has to be at least a reasonable effort to deal with the academic side of things.

I'm not trying to troll or start a flame war. I fully did NOT like the glorified indentured servitude of the days of yore in college sports. But I think the pendulum is too far the other way and really does not provide any legitimacy to the fact that these programs are still at least nominally part of the universities that they represent on television. But I also readily admit those horses are long since out of the barn and are never going to come back. It's also why I'll end my comments on the system here and return to just commenting on coach movements from here on out in this thread.
 
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#60      
BashCtIllini
jamarvelous31 said:
Or how about a sane position: I don't begrudge them from getting wildly wealthy & doing what's best for them.

It's just reasonable to expect them to do the same for the employees they're leading.

I'm a manager and don't throw a fit when one of my folks gets a promotion, even it makes my job more difficult.
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do your employees leave every year? Would you advise them to take a worse position even if it pays them more?

The connection between college basketball and work is fairly loose. If anyone remembers, this was supposed to be an extracurricular program for students. College athletics have been around longer than professional sports. After professional sports came around, it became a minor league. That didn't change what college sports was, it just provided them a job after college, and to me thats the big difference. Even if you view the kids as employees, they're being trained for the pros (which in reality is only for the small minority that are good enough). Bouncing from school to school is not optimal for their training.

I never begrudge anyone a promotion, and that is good for your development. Think a guy like Dalton Knecht. He needed to show he could play against top competition. He also graduated from his previous school. I also never begrudge a guy who isn't getting playing time. If you want to play, you've got to be on a team you're good enough for. But that's not what we're seeing anymore. It's just popcorn. Good players on good teams are just popping from school to school chasing money. Schools are actively recruiting away other teams players. You've got guys leaving a good team to go to a worse team.

Just look at Coleman. I laughed when people were talking about him to the NBA. But he made a big jump in his shooting last year, and had an outside chance. Had he taken another jump in his shooting, he could have had an outside chance. Instead, he went to a worse team, and his numbers have regressed. Now he's getting blasted left and right by fans. Well he's got a lot of money. That money won't last forever though, especially with kids who are prone to make unwise purchases.

If college athletes want to act like a professional sports league, then they need rules like a professional sports league. That includes contracts, salary caps, trades, etc. Could you imagine trades in college sports?

I don't blame Larranaga at all. I'm sure recruiting is rough enough on a 75 year old. But now having to recruit your own team, woo donors to pay for this guy or that. College coaches are now general managers and coaches. It's completely different. Though I will say, leaving in the middle of a season is BS. Since when did that become a thing?
 
#61      
BretMyBeachHouse
OrangeBlue98 said:
Maybe I'm giving him too much benefit of the doubt, but I found Larranaga's comments more of an indictment of the system than of any individual players.

Like I've said, I'm completely in favor of players being compensated for their name, image, and likeness recognition that comes with their recognition as collegiate athletes. Caitlin Clark signs endorsement deals with State Farm and Nike? All for it. An Illini player or group of players does a series of TV commercials for a local car dealership or restaurant and is compensated by the business? Yes, please - I see this a lot with Drake players on TV and radio where I live. Kylan Boswell wants to run a summer basketball camp for kids in the Champaign area and pocket the net proceeds for it? Absolutely. But that's not where we are right now. The vast majority of what we are seeing is money going into a "collective" and then being paid out to players. It's basically professional sports right now. I'm obviously still watching, but I'm just saying the system as it's running now wasn't really the idea when the idea of name, image, and likeness was developed.
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It absolutely isn't like what was envisioned. That vision lasted about two days, I think. But it is definitely the vision that many held in the name of equity. I think the way it's been cobbled together (especially the absence of contracts) is pretty absurd.

I listened to his complete statement and he focused on the classic aspects of coaching in the past, like preparing young men for life after basketball. So I think his nostalgia gives him a bit of a pass, but he definitely didn't express it well because he doesn't give any support to the idea that players ought to be compensated or be more free to pursue opportunities to enhance their career prospects.

I think one aspect of the game that has changed in the last 3 decades is all the overseas opportunities which pretty much has every P5 player looking to get on track to get a professional contract somewhere. In 1985 a college player finishing his sophomore year might very well think he's got two more years of contributing and then he's going to need to start working a career. So the degree was super important. Think of Altenberger or Anthony Welch or Glynn Blackwell. Now those same types of players would be thinking of how they could get the minutes and stats to score a contract overseas.
 
#62      
the juiceman cometh
OrangeBlue98 said:
I don't disagree with any of this. But players freely transferring does seem to make a mockery of the academic side of this. I realize this is not new territory, as we all know Kentucky's usual crop of one and done freshmen never went to class after they met their eligibility needs. How are the credits these players are allegedly earning transferring when players are going to 3-4 different schools in their collegiate careers? I say that because as long as there are still names of universities on these uniforms, there has to be at least a reasonable effort to deal with the academic side of things.
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A lot of these players that transfer actually do so after obtaining a degree. Goode and Hawkins both obtained their degrees before transferring to other programs. And TSJ's transfer decision hinged on the fact that he was able to transfer credits to UIUC, but had problems on that end with Michigan. So academic concerns played a big role in his transfer. For players transferring to 3-4 schools, I'm sure some of their credits don't transfer. But these players often are taking classes in the summer too (which is why you see many players graduate in less than 4 years) and with a COVID year, or if they redshirt, are often in school for 5 years. So losing some credits in a transfer does not necessarily mean they can't attain a degree.

And regular college students often go to multiple schools. I know plenty of non-athletes who transferred schools. They didn't have to sit out a year. And yeah, some of their credits didn't transfer. They figured it out. A lot of people who enter university don't attain a degree either. Illinois has one of the highest graduation rates in the country, at 85%. That means 15% of regular, non-athlete students, that go to Illinois do not attain a degree. The graduation rate for Illinois men's basketball is 80% and for football is 85%, so these are in-line with what you'd expect from regular students.
 
#63      
7 Year Illini
jamarvelous31 said:
And when I retire a multimillionaire, halfway through a major project, and use my going away party to whine about my coworkers...you can say I pulled a "Larranaga."
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Can I love this post a thousand times? According to Bank of America, 47% of Americans said they were living paycheck to paycheck in the third quarter of 2024.

So to all the coaching multi-millionaires who whine that players are finally getting paid --- F#$*#$! YOU
 
#65      
jamarvelous31
BashCtIllini said:
do your employees leave every year? Would you advise them to take a worse position even if it pays them more?

The connection between college basketball and work is fairly loose. If anyone remembers, this was supposed to be an extracurricular program for students. College athletics have been around longer than professional sports. After professional sports came around, it became a minor league. That didn't change what college sports was, it just provided them a job after college, and to me thats the big difference. Even if you view the kids as employees, they're being trained for the pros (which in reality is only for the small minority that are good enough). Bouncing from school to school is not optimal for their training.

I never begrudge anyone a promotion, and that is good for your development. Think a guy like Dalton Knecht. He needed to show he could play against top competition. He also graduated from his previous school. I also never begrudge a guy who isn't getting playing time. If you want to play, you've got to be on a team you're good enough for. But that's not what we're seeing anymore. It's just popcorn. Good players on good teams are just popping from school to school chasing money. Schools are actively recruiting away other teams players. You've got guys leaving a good team to go to a worse team.

Just look at Coleman. I laughed when people were talking about him to the NBA. But he made a big jump in his shooting last year, and had an outside chance. Had he taken another jump in his shooting, he could have had an outside chance. Instead, he went to a worse team, and his numbers have regressed. Now he's getting blasted left and right by fans. Well he's got a lot of money. That money won't last forever though, especially with kids who are prone to make unwise purchases.

If college athletes want to act like a professional sports league, then they need rules like a professional sports league. That includes contracts, salary caps, trades, etc. Could you imagine trades in college sports?

I don't blame Larranaga at all. I'm sure recruiting is rough enough on a 75 year old. But now having to recruit your own team, woo donors to pay for this guy or that. College coaches are now general managers and coaches. It's completely different. Though I will say, leaving in the middle of a season is BS. Since when did that become a thing?
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Yes. Most entry to mid level professionals change roles every ~2 years. They also expect yearly raises or look elsewhere.

Remember that it was the NCAA that got us here by being so greedy about it that courts had to force them to allow employees to benefit.

Larranaga should complain to the NCAA instead of to the media about the men he was supposed to be helping succeed doing whats right for them.

You're throwing up a bunch of strawmen non-issues that will be figured out. If Coleman making a million dollars bothers you that much, remember you said we could all stop watching.
 
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#66      
WyattEarp
jamarvelous31 said:
Sure thing.

And when I retire a multimillionaire, halfway through a major project, and use my going away party to whine about my coworkers...you can say I pulled a "Larranaga."
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A multimillionaire you say? Well, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy New Yearā€¦bless your childrenā€¦(pets too)

And rememberā€¦Fake Wyatt Earp on Illinois Loyalty always liked you.
 
#67      
sbillini
jamarvelous31 said:
Or how about a sane position: I don't begrudge them from getting wildly wealthy & doing what's best for them.

It's just reasonable to expect them to do the same for the employees they're leading.

I'm a manager and don't throw a fit when one of my folks gets a promotion, even it makes my job more difficult.
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A sane position would be to take a meaningful stand that actually has an impact when you have an issue with something. Instead of taking moral high grounds on message boards yet still feeding the beast by continuing to watch and spend money to add to the problem.

Thereā€™s plenty of jobs that are overpaid vs the value to society they provide. High level Sports coaching is one of them. Thereā€™s others that are drastically underpaid (imo teachers are one of them). Thatā€™s a natural consequence of a capitalist system. While I think itā€™s the best system out there, itā€™s not perfect.
 
#68      
jamarvelous31
sbillini said:
A sane position would be to take a meaningful stand that actually has an impact when you have an issue with something. Instead of taking moral high grounds on message boards yet still feeding the beast by continuing to watch and spend money to add to the problem.

Thereā€™s plenty of jobs that are overpaid vs the value to society they provide. High level Sports coaching is one of them. Thereā€™s others that are drastically underpaid (imo teachers are one of them). Thatā€™s a natural consequence of a capitalist system. While I think itā€™s the best system out there, itā€™s not perfect.
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So you are saying that we should be doing something more useful with our time than posting about sports on a message board?

You and my wife agree.

But also, coaches are big mad because they have to face the consequences of capitalism, not just the benefits. So I guess we agree?
 
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#71      
sbillini
jamarvelous31 said:
So you are saying that we should be doing something more useful with our time than posting about sports on a message board?

You and my wife agree.

But also, coaches are big mad because they have to face the consequences of capitalism, not just the benefits. So I guess we agree?
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You can go back and read my posts - I literally said I'm in support of players being paid NIL. I'm all in favor for it.

And, yes, coaches are facing the consequences of capitalism. In fact, I think the NBA and NFL should get rid of minimum age/experience requirements - make it an even freer market. go for it.

What I think is ridiculous is to villify a well-respected coach that's at retirement age anyway for retiring and saying that the game has changed too much and he doesn't want to deal with it.

Said another way, I bet if you ask most coaches if they think players should be compensated, I bet, including Jim L, would be in favor of it. It's a question of how it's executed. As others are saying, it hasn't been executed well so far. It's a free for all, and, to some extent, i don't think it's in the best interest of players or the sports the way it's structured. BUt I also think that'll change and we'll be a full blown professional model (contracts, free agents, etc.) soon enough.

Finally, to give a concrete example of how i manifest my opinions to the level where it matters (in case anyone cares), I live in FL. When the Ilini were at the reliaquest bowl a couple years ago, I was first in line to buy tickets and had a great time. A few months ago when i saw JW talking about cutting funding to other sports to fund salaries for basketball/football, my mind changed. I'll still watch on TV (Mainly cuz I don't watch almost any other sport). But when the Citrus bowl was announced, my wife asked me right away if we're buying tickets, and I right away passed. You can think I'm crazy or whatever, but I think the current model is moving too far to a professional model and away from a non-profit school mission. I'd rather just donate the money to the university directly.
 
#72      
jamarvelous31
sbillini said:
You can go back and read my posts - I literally said I'm in support of players being paid NIL. I'm all in favor for it.

And, yes, coaches are facing the consequences of capitalism. In fact, I think the NBA and NFL should get rid of minimum age/experience requirements - make it an even freer market. go for it.

What I think is ridiculous is to villify a well-respected coach that's at retirement age anyway for retiring and saying that the game has changed too much and he doesn't want to deal with it.

Said another way, I bet if you ask most coaches if they think players should be compensated, I bet, including Jim L, would be in favor of it. It's a question of how it's executed. As others are saying, it hasn't been executed well so far. It's a free for all, and, to some extent, i don't think it's in the best interest of players or the sports the way it's structured. BUt I also think that'll change and we'll be a full blown professional model (contracts, free agents, etc.) soon enough.

Finally, to give a concrete example of how i manifest my opinions to the level where it matters (in case anyone cares), I live in FL. When the Ilini were at the reliaquest bowl a couple years ago, I was first in line to buy tickets and had a great time. A few months ago when i saw JW talking about cutting funding to other sports to fund salaries for basketball/football, my mind changed. I'll still watch on TV (Mainly cuz I don't watch almost any other sport). But when the Citrus bowl was announced, my wife asked me right away if we're buying tickets, and I right away passed. You can think I'm crazy or whatever, but I think the current model is moving too far to a professional model and away from a non-profit school mission. I'd rather just donate the money to the university directly.
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1735354590720.jpeg
 
#73      
Iamgroot
the juiceman cometh said:
I don't think anyone has a problem with Larranaga retiring.

It's the fact that he's essentially bashing his former players on the way out the door and blaming them for his retirement, and the fact that this is being used as "evidence" that players getting NIL is a bad thing. When he does that, pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who made millions coaching complaining about "money ruining the sport" is fair game.

Likewise, I'm sure there were college sports fans who were uncomfortable with the amount of money coaches were making before NIL, but not many, and they weren't very vocal on this board. Now that players are getting NIL, the "money is ruining the sport" takes are everywhere. I think it's fair to point out that disconnect when this topic comes up.
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Idk about that go back 2 years on this board about all the Sean Miller talk and daddy Brad agent working the phone for yearly raises
 
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