Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#876      
STLini25
21ChampaignSt said:
We are a good program with high expectations regardless of NIL. We've always gotten high caliber players. Our rafters are full of names from pre-NIL. This is surprising but we're like top 10 in terms of points scored all time in the NBA.

We're a top 15 program historically in nearly every metric because of what we accomplished pre-NIL. And now that we have top 10-15 NIL, we'll remain a top 10-15 program.
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Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations. We were a top program under Henson and Jimmy Collins. We were a top program with Self’s players. Our success historically has been very isolated to a couple specific situations. Basically ALL of our success for the last 75 years is a few years when Jimmy Collin’s was an assistant and a few years when Self got us players.

There a reason Henson (pre 1990), Self and Underwood had more success than other Illini coaches. You cannot compare expectations to Illinois under the NIL era and Illinois from 1990 to NIL (excluding Self years). It’s a COMPLETELY different playing field. We are in a significantly better position to compete. Investing tremendous amounts of money. The expectations are higher.
 
#879      
Illini2010-11
STLini25 said:
Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations. We were a top program under Henson and Jimmy Collins. We were a top program with Self’s players. Our success historically has been very isolated to a couple specific situations. Basically ALL of our success for the last 75 years is a few years when Jimmy Collin’s was an assistant and a few years when Self got us players.

There a reason Henson (pre 1990), Self and Underwood had more success than other Illini coaches. You cannot compare expectations to Illinois under the NIL era and Illinois from 1990 to NIL (excluding Self years). It’s a COMPLETELY different playing field. We are in a significantly better position to compete. Investing tremendous amounts of money. The expectations are higher.
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Do you really think we were running a completely clean program pre-NIL? Weber seemed to shy away from playing the game in a big way, and I doubt Groce was competent enough to run it at a big program. Brad was recruiting at a high-level before NIL became official, as was Self and his predecessors. It is naive to think we were at such a disadvantage. We just did not have the right coaches for 15 or so years.
 
#880      
the juiceman cometh
STLini25 said:
32 years. Wonder what the list looks like if you take off players from the Self and AO eras? 🤔

You CANNOT compare the Illinois job pre NIL and post NIL. The ability to compete is COMPLETELY different now. The expectations are higher here after 2021 and justifiably so.

The University is investing a tremendous amount into the basketball and football programs. There are expectations equivalent to that. It like comparing Brett with a top 30 NIL bag in football to how Ron Turner or Tepper did. It’s not a fair comparison. Expectations are higher because we are in a better position to compete.
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Well, so we've changed our tune from "basically no recruits" to "not as many as I want."

Also, not sure who AO is, but that's not 32 years. I went back to 1998, because that's as far back as RSCI goes on sports reference. NIL started before the 2021 season. So it's 23 years.

From 2010 to NIL we had 6 top-25 recruiting classes (4 of them were top 15, one was top 10). Weber, Groce, and pre-NIL Underwood all had top-25 recruiting classes.
 
#881      
the juiceman cometh
STLini25 said:
Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations. We were a top program under Henson and Jimmy Collins. We were a top program with Self’s players. Our success historically has been very isolated to a couple specific situations. Basically ALL of our success for the last 75 years is a few years when Jimmy Collin’s was an assistant and a few years when Self got us players.

There a reason Henson (pre 1990), Self and Underwood had more success than other Illini coaches. You cannot compare expectations to Illinois under the NIL era and Illinois from 1990 to NIL (excluding Self years). It’s a COMPLETELY different playing field. We are in a significantly better position to compete. Investing tremendous amounts of money. The expectations are higher.
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But we didn't do that. We went 34 years without any sweet sixteen except for the ones you just decided don't count (and hilariously still counted those years in the running total) for some reason. And ironically, 7 of those years were under Henson, including many in which Collins was getting us players.
 
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#882      
WyattEarp
STLini25 said:
Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations. We were a top program under Henson and Jimmy Collins. We were a top program with Self’s players. Our success historically has been very isolated to a couple specific situations. Basically ALL of our success for the last 75 years is a few years when Jimmy Collin’s was an assistant and a few years when Self got us players.

There a reason Henson (pre 1990), Self and Underwood had more success than other Illini coaches. You cannot compare expectations to Illinois under the NIL era and Illinois from 1990 to NIL (excluding Self years). It’s a COMPLETELY different playing field. We are in a significantly better position to compete. Investing tremendous amounts of money. The expectations are higher.
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Yep…I think you’re pretty much right on. I would make an amendment/add Lon Kruger to your list of talent getters though…
IMG_4806.jpeg


Kruger had the one awful year and 3 respectable ones. He never got to the Sw16 here…but certainly proved he could at other stops.
 
#883      
STLini25
Kruger was a great coach (and person). He loved Illinois but literally got an offer he could not refuse.
 
#885      
21ChampaignSt
STLini25 said:
Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations. We were a top program under Henson and Jimmy Collins. We were a top program with Self’s players. Our success historically has been very isolated to a couple specific situations. Basically ALL of our success for the last 75 years is a few years when Jimmy Collin’s was an assistant and a few years when Self got us players.

There a reason Henson (pre 1990), Self and Underwood had more success than other Illini coaches. You cannot compare expectations to Illinois under the NIL era and Illinois from 1990 to NIL (excluding Self years). It’s a COMPLETELY different playing field. We are in a significantly better position to compete. Investing tremendous amounts of money. The expectations are higher.
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Well that's because you're not explaining it well. Your argument is that Bill Self, who was here for 3 years in the early 2000s is the reason we're top 15 ALL TIME in wins, win%, NBA production, etc.? Also, you might want to double check who recruited the players Self took to the second weekend.

We've only NOT been successful with Weber and Groce. One average and one below average coach. It just so happened that we had them back to back which, for people with limited knowledge of our history skews their perception of the program.

And even Weber had a fair amount of success here but he was fired because....he wasn't meeting our high expectations.
 
#886      
artist3
STLini25 said:
Wow I’m surprised I have to explain this. From 1990 until 2023. We went 34 seasons with ZERO Sweet 16s except with Self’s players. There is a reason Self’s recruits were better than the recruits for the other 34 years. Going 34 years without any Sweet 16s is NOT a quality program with high expectations.
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You’re giving Self credit for the Weber sweet 16s. That’s fine, but then you’re also giving Self credit for his sweet 16s with Kruger’s players.. it doesn’t go both ways.
 
#891      
WyattEarp
21ChampaignSt said:
Well that's because you're not explaining it well. Your argument is that Bill Self, who was here for 3 years in the early 2000s is the reason we're top 15 ALL TIME in wins, win%, NBA production, etc.? Also, you might want to double check who recruited the players Self took to the second weekend.

We've only NOT been successful with Weber and Groce. One average and one below average coach. It just so happened that we had them back to back which, for people with limited knowledge of our history skews their perception of the program.

And even Weber had a fair amount of success here but he was fired because....he wasn't meeting our high expectations.
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Okay, he didn’t say Bill Self alone…and yes, he left out Lon…

There are obviously other high points before that which effects win % as well…not sure how far you’re going back for this exercise…for some of us.,.going back to Combes or before might as well be a movie…I’ve got nothing against the Whiz Kids- either for that matter…

I do agree with you, that the Math presented here might be a little fuzzy. (I could prolly check but I’m more a humanities guy and I’m also incredibly lazy.)

But let’s be real…(it’s not like there’s been just one drought either.) There is no denying the years we had marquee talent is the years we got marquee results. We know which teams put most of those wins up there…which teams inflated that win % I mean come on. It was the teams with the future pros AND the other good/solid competitive teams helmed by our winningest coaches. I mean what are we even talking about here?

Sure we’re a FAIRLY
successful program. By a lot of people’s standards we are…even if some of them like to wear orange a lot.

He does make a good point. If a program goes, oh I dunno? a decade or two without doing much of anything in March can you really expect people (the casual fan) to care or think of Illinois as a: winning, consistently outstanding basketball school.

Probably not. I guess you could say: “ I’ll have you know the Illini are top 15 % in wins” That’s when you’ll hear: “Give me a call when you’re in the top 5.” Or “call me when you’re in the Final Four again?
 
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#894      
WyattEarp
Tables@EddieMunster said:
Bruce wasn’t some great Xs and Os guy. He couldn’t adjust his system to the talent he was bringing in. Meyers Leonard spent his time here at the 3pt line setting screens.
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I like the nuts and bolts of his motion offense. But it’s definitely got its limitations. Weber and staff’s X’s and O’s were decent to good…but I sure remember those late tenure years….where they struggled mightily to put 40 on the board…yes, inferior talent…but that’s still pretty bad. Weber was decent I think at X’s and O’s…but I think we probably remember him as better than he was.
 
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#895      
fuggles
Illini 993 said:
While you are correct as to the specific bolded claim you were refuting, it is a narrow definition. Just to be fair, it should be pointed out that Self has been to the second weekend 14 times, Cal 15, Izzo 16, Pearl 5, and Barnes 9. But, I agree with you that a bad loss or two does not define a good coach.
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Yea probably a better way to compare is Self has 11 second weekends in 20 years (minus covid) at Kansas.
 
#896      
IllinitripleJ
One thing that always puzzled me about Weber was his recruits for Southern Illinois from 1998 through 2003 were better than his Illinois recruits from 2004 through 2008. I also always thought Illinois should have recruited the greater Indianapolis area harder from the 1960's going forward. C-U is less than 100 miles away and there is no reason Illinois could not have gotten some really good players from the Indianapolis area if we invested the time and effort. I remember in 1976 Indiana invested a lot of time and effort in recruiting Glenn Grunwald from East Leyden and got him. They hardly recruited Mike Woodson from Indianapolis and still got him. Maybe we could have stolen Woodson.....
 
#897      
mhuml32
Tables@EddieMunster said:
Bruce wasn’t some great Xs and Os guy. He couldn’t adjust his system to the talent he was bringing in. Meyers Leonard spent his time here at the 3pt line setting screens.
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This myth has had a very long tail for some folks. PPG averages of Weber's teams after '05:


06: 70.0 (139th out of 335)
07: 64.1 (266th out of 337)
08: 63.6 (271st out of 341)
09: 64.8 (240th out of 344)
10: 70.8 (124th out of 347)
11: 71.0 (110th out of 346)
12: 65.6 (225th out of 344)
 
#899      
WyattEarp
mhuml32 said:
This myth has had a very long tail for some folks. PPG averages of Weber's teams after '05:


06: 70.0 (139th out of 335)
07: 64.1 (266th out of 337)
08: 63.6 (271st out of 341)
09: 64.8 (240th out of 344)
10: 70.8 (124th out of 347)
11: 71.0 (110th out of 346)
12: 65.6 (225th out of 344)
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What are you saying here? 64 points a game is evidence of being a crackerjack offensive coach? Like I said, I liked McClain and I like Weber’s Motion O…but I’m not sure this proves anything one way or another.

Even a lot of good high school teams score in the 80s and still manage to play decent D…

AND if they were trying to strategically/purposely play possessions late in the shot clock (ala Virginia) in that era…it didn’t translate into wins.
 
#900      
Jules Winnfield
Tired of this Crap once again GO LOOK AT BRAD UNDERWOOD HISTORICAL HEAD COACH BASKETBALL RECORD and compare Underwood’s Record NOT YOUR BIASED FEELINGS to these coaches. What the heck has Brad Underwood done in his entire head Coaching career at 61 years old in March. The NCAA Tournament. That’s the only thing that matters. Big Ten tournament Doesn’t Matter. It DOES NOT Matter. Purdue didn’t win the Big Tournament last year but made it to the Final Four and the National Championship Game. I-would take a Final 4 and a National Championship game appearance any day over a stupid Big Ten Tournament Championship . Dana Altman has 3 Sweet 16s , 1 Elite 8 and 1 Final 4 as a head basketball coach. Mick Cronin who is 53 years old has 3 sweet 16s , 1 elite 8 and 1 final 4 as a head basketball coach. Matt Painter who is 54 years old has 5 sweet 16s , 1 elite 8 , 1 Final 4 and 1 National Championship game appearance . Greg Gard who is also just 54 years old has 2 Sweet 16s. With NIL at Illinois Personally I would take all these coaches over Underwood
 
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