Coaching Carousel (Basketball)

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#202      
Indy Illini Fan
sacraig said:
Houston was a middling AAC program when he was hired and we have been at or near the top of the B1G when Tyler got that job. Tyler was also hired directly into an offensive coordinator type role from being a GA.

The two kids of coaches are not comparable in terms of the experience they had at the time of hire, nor the caliber of the programs they were joining at the time of hire.
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This …
 
#203      
BackThatPassUp
sacraig said:
Houston was a middling AAC program when he was hired and we have been at or near the top of the B1G when Tyler got that job. Tyler was also hired directly into an offensive coordinator type role from being a GA.

The two kids of coaches are not comparable in terms of the experience they had at the time of hire, nor the caliber of the programs they were joining at the time of hire.
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Plus anyone who saw that out of bounds play to beat Purdue knows someone on that staff is actually doing some in game coaching. We're not in position or question any staffers with Houston right now based off their success the last 5 years and that OOB play alone.
 
#204      
FrankNitty30
sacraig said:
Houston was a middling AAC program when he was hired and we have been at or near the top of the B1G when Tyler got that job. Tyler was also hired directly into an offensive coordinator type role from being a GA.

The two kids of coaches are not comparable in terms of the experience they had at the time of hire, nor the caliber of the programs they were joining at the time of hire.
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I am flummoxed that this is a tough concept for some to wrap their brains around.

These two situations are not even remotely close.
 
#207      
sbillini
OrangeBlue98 said:
Why would Bielema care? He has his program in a fantastic spot and doesn't need Whitman to help steer him in the right direction. He does exactly what a head coach should do when the season doesn't go as planned, and look at what happened this season.

I'll 100% stand behind my previous comment that if Underwood came to me looking for a raise, I'd tell him his raise is effective when he is when it comes to making the needed changes to the program.

I think the best thing right now would be if Underwood makes his own decision and finally follows through on his threats if someone really does come to him. There are plenty of coaches who would at least have this program in the same spot, and I'm very confident that Josh Whitman would find the right coach to take this program to an even higher level. Maybe even one who can properly manage his staff!
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If i'm working in a job where i'm supposed to have control over who's on my team, and my boss goes in and forces a colleague to make changes to his/her team when things aren't going great (but, let's be clear about this, outside of this board, they're not that bad), then i begin to feel at least a bit uneasy of what happens when things aren't going great for me. I'm not saying BB is gonna go find another job, but, at the very least, you think about it.

As for BU asking for a raise, I'd manage things a lot differently. I'd first have an idea who's out there that I can replace BU with at the current moment. Then I'd think about the donor situation (are they revolting, or just annoyed). If there's coaches out there that I think i'd be able to get and I can reasonably replace BU with and there's not a donor revolt going on, I'd simply say to BU that I think he's getting paid fairly for the results we've gotten. If things improve, I'll be the first one making calls for an extension/raise, but right now, it's about right (top 20ish pay for top 20ish results). Even if inside i'm thinking differently, I'm not going to put ultimatums on an employee and effectively put them "under the gun" when things aren't objectively bad. It's a results-based business. Everyone knows how the game is played. I don't need to teach a 60something year old guy who's been in the game for 30+ years how the game is played. I guess that's just how i manage.
 
#208      
Illini in Italy
OrangeBlue98 said:
So a boss is just supposed to let one of his two most important employees pile-drive the program without doing anything about it?

Would a Fortune 500 CEO let the VP of his second largest division crater that division without having discussions with that VP about recommendations to fix the problem?
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Ummmm . . . I'd like to introduce you to Jeff Immelt, former CEO of the now defunct General Electric Company . . .
 
#210      
OrangeBlue98
Which is certainly a data point in favor of my assertions . . .
 
#211      
CoalCity
OrangeBlue98 said:
It's hard to equate basketball to corporate life, but I think the attitude of promoting from within at a program like Illinois does more harm than it does good all things considered. In a coporate enviroment, you often have a number of positions in the same line. For example, there will be a number of accounting supervisor positions. Sure, you need some fresh perspectives that outside opinions can bring. But internal promotions foster engagement and a feeling that you can work up the ladder. If I'm hiring, I'd prefer an internal promotion and would use that as a tiebreaker if I had two candidates that were equal in other ways. However, I'll always select the most qualified candidate. I don't care about internal politics, friend connections, etc. I want the best skills, accomplishments, and qualifications when I'm hiring. Call me unsentimental, but internal politics really don't sway my thinking a lot.

A Big Ten basketball staff only has five assistant coaching positions, and we all know how transient the profession is. Maybe you have one for an internal promotion role, but the other four really need to be for experienced assistants. A Big Ten staff isn't where you have "on the job" training. It's where you hire people who have proven themselves at other positions and are looking to eventually be head coaches one day. On a given top Big Ten staff, you should have at least three - and probably four - coaches who should be getting calls and interviews for promotions (head coach at a smaller school, lead assistant at a big school) as their next step up the ladder. Now maybe they have done that and are good staying as an assistant (i.e. Antigua), but if 75-80% of your staff isn't fielding some sort of interest from other programs for promotions then you're probably doing it wrong.

On the current Illinois staff, who is likely fielding calls and interest for promotions? I think we can all agree that Hamer isn't. Let's assume that it's only Antigua and Alexander (again, only an assumption on my part). If that's the case, that's 40% of the assistant coaching staff. That's not good enough for a program like Illinois, in my opinion.
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All you have to do is look at the benches of any team in the B1G or in the tournament and I'll wager you won't find 3 20-somethings as assistant coaches on any of them. GA's and staffers yes, not full assistants. You'll see assistants that are lifers and former head coaches, but not a bunch of kids with no experience.
 
#212      
OrangeBlue98
sbillini said:
As for BU asking for a raise, I'd manage things a lot differently. I'd first have an idea who's out there that I can replace BU with at the current moment. Then I'd think about the donor situation (are they revolting, or just annoyed). If there's coaches out there that I think i'd be able to get and I can reasonably replace BU with and there's not a donor revolt going on, I'd simply say to BU that I think he's getting paid fairly for the results we've gotten. If things improve, I'll be the first one making calls for an extension/raise, but right now, it's about right (top 20ish pay for top 20ish results). Even if inside i'm thinking differently, I'm not going to put ultimatums on an employee and effectively put them "under the gun" when things aren't objectively bad. It's a results-based business. Everyone knows how the game is played. I don't need to teach a 60something year old guy who's been in the game for 30+ years how the game is played. I guess that's just how i manage.
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We're basically saying the same thing, you're just saying it in a less direct manner. All told, that's probably more in line with how I would specifically say it. However, my point would still stand. I believe in setting clear expectations with respectful, yet direct language. I've worked for managers who have been wishy-washy with words, and the lack of clarity is incredibly frustrating.

Underwood has had nearly every level of support possible from Whitman, even when there have been pretty open discussions with Underwood's agent/team with other programs (yes, I know that will always happen at this level). At some point, the CEO/AD has to (professionally and respectfully) tell the employee that he's received pretty much everything asked for and it's time for the results to align with that level of support. I don't exactly see Josh Whitman as someone who will lay down and let his employees walk over him no matter what.
 
#213      
EyeoftheIllini
Very tough to make the case that Tyler had the qualifications and “earned” the AC position. Now if Brad moves on, as a former Illini player and an AC at a high major school he would be qualified for the MBB HC position.

/s
 
#215      
sacraig
FrankNitty30 said:
I am flummoxed that this is a tough concept for some to wrap their brains around.

These two situations are not even remotely close.
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I'm not. It's human nature. People tend to rally around their opinions because it's easier than being wrong. We are all guilty of it, at times. And I am sure the tendency is coloring my approach to this situation as well, because I pretty firmly believe that, results aside, Tyler was not qualified for that position when he was hired and the optics aren't good.

Based purely on results, I have a much bigger problem with Hamer, though. Tyler's offenses have been decent or better.
 
#216      
Poe's Law
sacraig said:
Houston was a middling AAC program when he was hired and we have been at or near the top of the B1G when Tyler got that job. Tyler was also hired directly into an offensive coordinator type role from being a GA.

The two kids of coaches are not comparable in terms of the experience they had at the time of hire, nor the caliber of the programs they were joining at the time of hire.
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yet, the fact remains Kelvin hired his son as an assistant the first chance he got. We can justify it however you like (Houston sucked at the time, he had an awesome resume from Appalachian State, etc.)

I also think it’s relevant that if we were still limited to 3 assistant coaches, it’s unlikely Tyler would be an assistant at Illinois at this point although he probably gets promoted when TA leaves before the season if he hadn’t already found an assistant spot elsewhere.
 
#217      
blife
If his name was Tyler Smith would anyone be questioning what he has done? He has done a pretty good job with the offense. That is based on stats and what he has had to work through this year. Kellen is also a very good assistant; would he be better if his name was Kellen Smith? Copper Flag was a really good first-time college player. Some people, even based on lack of perceived experience are really good at what they do. We have to fix our defense. It is not great IMHO. Yes, it would also be nice to bring in a big-name assistant to fill TAs spot and rearrange the chairs on the deck of the Titanic as many of you are viewing out current situation.
 
#218      
the juiceman cometh
sacraig said:
I'm not. It's human nature. People tend to rally around their opinions because it's easier than being wrong. We are all guilty of it, at times. And I am sure the tendency is coloring my approach to this situation as well, because I pretty firmly believe that, results aside, Tyler was not qualified for that position when he was hired and the optics aren't good.

Based purely on results, I have a much bigger problem with Hamer, though. Tyler's offenses have been decent or better.
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Thank you for finally acknowledging this. My entire problem with this discourse is that the only solid complaint I've seen thrown around about Tyler is that he was hired due to nepotism. Which is objectively true, and if that's the entirety of your issue with him, then that's fair. It is also, however, objectively true of Kellen Sampson and Stephen Pearl (who has never had a job in basketball where his dad wasn't his boss). TU's situation is not exactly unique in college basketball, which is probably why JW didn't veto this whole thing from the start.

Once Brad was given the green light to hire his son, I think it makes sense to evaluate him based on his performance in the job, not based on his resume before he got the job. A resume is a nice way to screen candidates, but it's not the end all be all. In fact, many hires with great resumes end up failing, and sometimes hires with subpar resumes and little work experience end up surprising you. Other than vague rumors of a verbal dust-up with a player, I haven't seen any evidence that Tyler is actually bad at the job. If there is something I've missed, I would love to be pointed in the right direction.
 
#219      
OrangeBlue98
blife said:
If his name was Tyler Smith would anyone be questioning what he has done? He has done a pretty good job with the offense. That is based on stats and what he has had to work through this year. Kellen is also a very good assistant; would he be better if his name was Kellen Smith? Copper Flag was a really good first-time college player. Some people, even based on lack of perceived experience are really good at what they do. We have to fix our defense. It is not great IMHO. Yes, it would also be nice to bring in a big-name assistant to fill TAs spot and rearrange the chairs on the deck of the Titanic as many of you are viewing out current situation.
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Agreed on this for the most part. While the optics around Tyler's appointment aren't ideal and he still has a lot to learn about in-game adjustments, his offenses have been in the 90th percentile or higher of D1 basketball the last two seasons. Maybe a more experienced assistant would have done even better, but it's not at all like the results have been terrible. If I've had a significant issue, it's been the unforced turnovers (which I'm not sure any coaching staff can really absolve short of benching players for lack of focus) and the refusal to move away from volume 3s when shooting wasn't good. I would have liked to see a lot more of what we saw in the Minnesota game and both Iowa games a lot more during the season, but again the metrics showed the offense was performing at a reasonably high level.

The defense has been a much larger issue the last couple of years. I do not understand how any head coach could look at that situation and think, "Yep, all good there - Plan A, but better." That's where my real struggle lies with staff management along with how the Anderson (chump edit on my part) situation was handled last season. Using my corporate analogy again, if I had an employee performing like Hamer was and I wasn't documenting coaching and a performance improvement plan, I would fully expect my manager to have a discussion with me and ask what I'm doing to resolve that situation. It's nothing personal, it's just business. My manager wouldn't be doing his or her job if that conversation with me wasn't happening.
 
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#220      
Grandpa
BackThatPassUp said:
Plus anyone who saw that out of bounds play to beat Purdue knows someone on that staff is actually doing some in game coaching. We're not in position or question any staffers with Houston right now based off their success the last 5 years and that OOB play alone.
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I assume that you heard the description of the play later. The inbound pass could have gone 3 different places depending on Purdue's reaction to the screens being set. The other 2 reactions would have resulted in open shots, but not dunks. Nobody guarding the basket or inbounder was the hoped-for reaction.
 
#222      
USAFILLINI
If his name was Tyler Smith he would be managing an enterprise rental car somewhere or maybe a HS basketball coach in a small town.
 
#223      
sacraig
blife said:
If his name was Tyler Smith would anyone be questioning what he has done? He has done a pretty good job with the offense. That is based on stats and what he has had to work through this year. Kellen is also a very good assistant; would he be better if his name was Kellen Smith? Copper Flag was a really good first-time college player. Some people, even based on lack of perceived experience are really good at what they do. We have to fix our defense. It is not great IMHO. Yes, it would also be nice to bring in a big-name assistant to fill TAs spot and rearrange the chairs on the deck of the Titanic as many of you are viewing out current situation.
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That's a valid question. I think people would be questioning him based on age and experience in light of the fact that our offense seemed over reliant on threes, but the heat would be almost certainly less if the nepotism angle wasn't an issue.

I also know nothing of whatever other rumors are floating around about him and players and have no idea if that would change if he weren't an Underwood.
 
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#225      
Indy Illini Fan
CoachHooleyHoo said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1906711353999425811
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This is 100% true … Oats would never leave Bama for a Tier 2 at best Big Ten job and a school who doesn’t have an AD …

Would Oats leave for the right job ? Yes … He’s got a list … He’s not exactly thrilled about having to beg to get P Murph a raise and beg for NIL money … He doesn’t enjoy it … He thinks he’s had enough success to where he should supported more than he is and it shouldn’t be a struggle to get it …
 
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