College Sports (Basketball)

#179      
ChiefGritty
www.cbssports.com

Why March Madness expansion is really happening: NCAA unnecessarily folded to a bluff from power conferences

March Madness is going to expand because of soft threats and endless greed from the power conferences, Matt Norlander argues
www.cbssports.com www.cbssports.com

Very smart article, expressing in frank terms the awful truth of all of this: none of this really suits anyone's interests, there aren't really any winners, no one actually makes any money off of this, it's just careless autopilot reacting to fake problems and totally abdicating any responsibility of stewardship of the sport.

For the record I am going to send an email to Josh Whitman asking him to put a stop to this, and I would encourage others to do the same. If we are going to have the sports we love in the future, the fans need to advocate for themselves and have their voices heard, there is far, far too much cynicism about what is "inevitable".
 
#181      
Bucktown
Fly Illini Fly! said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/2049881559201624246
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This is the kind of thing that allows Duke to spend more on NIL. Illinois needs to do a better job in getting its players in national ad campaigns. Illinois has advertising and marketing managers and executives up and down the consumer products industries. Surely we can find find a way to get our players some face time in advertising.

Mirk, the twins, Andrej, even Jake's hair have something to offer brands.
 
#184      
ChiefGritty
Fly Illini Fly! said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/2049881559201624246
Click to expand...

So, any game (even at a neutral site) where Duke is the "home" team belongs to the ACC via the grant of rights, and therefore ESPN via the ACC's media deal. So what gives?

Duke worked with the ACC and ESPN on future scheduling commitments in exchange for the ability to play these three neutral-site games, including participating in select ESPN-owned and operated neutral-site events in the 2027-28 and 2028-29 seasons.
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Meanwhile, at Wake Forest, Boston College et al
Hungry Dinner GIF
 
#185      
Emerson Bigguns
The thing I dislike the most about the expanded field is what it does to small schools. I think the auto-bids should be exempt from play-in games. Your reward is a more winnable game, but even worse odds of making a memorable run.

I say...Let the teams who didn't win squat fight over the scraps. (not that anyone cares...)

I don't really have a problem with more games... I like basketball, especially when the stakes are win or go home.
 
#186      
sdiver68
Bucktown said:
This is the kind of thing that allows Duke to spend more on NIL. Illinois needs to do a better job in getting its players in national ad campaigns. Illinois has advertising and marketing managers and executives up and down the consumer products industries. Surely we can find find a way to get our players some face time in advertising.

Mirk, the twins, Andrej, even Jake's hair have something to offer brands.
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Illinois is doing this already. We just need to upset the apple cart for long enough to have brand power like Duke, UConn, Michigan.
 
#188      
grue2
sulli said:
It’s a bad idea full stop.

It further devalues the regular season. If you have a guy injured in January no reason to try to get him back playing since there is no threat to not make the tourney.

It’s a money grab because the NCAA makes money on the tournament and the individual teams/conferences make money on the regular season. This is the ncaa making their product more valuable at the expense of the regular season product they don’t own.

It seems to me that very few fans want this change. Like probably less than 10%.

That’s long term dumb. Playoff expansion has ruined MLB and NBA.
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I think the NBA playoff expansion helped with some of the tanking. It kept teams 9/10 trying to win. Even with the new proposal, without the expanded playoffs it is better to finish 12th or 13th than 10th (assuming #9 still had a shot at #8).
 
#189      
MikeTisdale
ChiefGritty said:
So, any game (even at a neutral site) where Duke is the "home" team belongs to the ACC via the grant of rights, and therefore ESPN via the ACC's media deal. So what gives?
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Yea that was my first thought... how is Duke making TV deals if the ACC owns their broadcasting rights?
 
#193      
Illini 993
#194      
jamarvelous31
grue2 said:
I think the NBA playoff expansion helped with some of the tanking. It kept teams 9/10 trying to win. Even with the new proposal, without the expanded playoffs it is better to finish 12th or 13th than 10th (assuming #9 still had a shot at #8).
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Not the main point in the convo but the NBA just changed their draft rules acknowledging that the play in tournament did nothing to stop tanking (this year is arguably the worst tanking year we've seen in ages) but they kept the games because they want money.
 
#195      
Fighter of the Nightman
There was no great place to put this, but I was thinking how it was interesting that a lot of the popular narrative around the Final Four was that Illinois was somehow perceived as less prestigious than the other programs ... maybe others didn't encounter that, but it's a vibe I got. UConn I get and even to an extent Michigan, but we literally have more Final Fours than Arizona and had been to one more recently, haha. Anyway, I attended the Final Four, and it was cool when they introduced each team, they said the number of (officially, non-vacated) Final Four appearances each team now had. When I heard how surprisingly close all of the schools were clustered, it gave me an interest idea.

Below is a list of how many Final Four appearances each year's Final Four participant had at that time. It's a cool visual to how the all-time pecking order can change over time.

2000
North Carolina - 15
Michigan State - 4
Florida - 2
Wisconsin - 2

2001
Duke - 13
Michigan State - 5
Arizona - 4
Maryland - 1

2002
Kansas - 11
Indiana - 8
Oklahoma - 4
Maryland - 2

2003
Kansas - 12
Syracuse - 4
Marquette - 3
Texas - 3

2004
Duke - 14
Oklahoma State - 6
UConn - 2
Georgia Tech - 2

2005
North Carolina - 16
Louisville - 8
Michigan State - 6
Illinois - 5

2006
UCLA - 15
LSU - 4
Florida - 3
George Mason - 1

2007
UCLA - 16
Ohio State - 9
Georgetown - 5
Florida - 4

2008
North Carolina - 17
UCLA - 17
Kansas - 13
Memphis - 2* (later vacated, would have been #3)

2009
North Carolina - 18
Michigan State - 7
Villanova - 3
UConn - 3

2010
Duke - 15
Michigan State - 8
West Virginia - 2
Butler - 1

2011
Kentucky - 14
UConn - 4
Butler - 2
VCU - 1

2012
Kentucky - 15
Kansas - 14
Ohio State - 10
Louisville - 8* (later vacated, would have been #9)

2013
Louisville - 8* (later vacated, would have been #10)
Michigan - 5
Syracuse - 5
Wichita State - 2

2014
Kentucky - 16
UConn - 5
Florida - 5
Wisconsin - 3

2015
Kentucky - 17
Duke - 16
Michigan State - 9
Wisconsin - 4

2016
North Carolina - 19
Syracuse - 6
Oklahoma - 5
Villanova - 4

2017
North Carolina - 20
Oregon - 2
Gonzaga - 1
South Carolina - 1

2018
Kansas - 15* (later vacated, making 2022 #15)
Michigan - 6
Villanova - 5
Loyola Chicago - 2

2019
Michigan State - 10
Virginia - 3
Auburn - 1
Texas Tech - 1

2020
N/A

2021
UCLA - 18
Houston - 6
Gonzaga - 2
Baylor - 1

2022
North Carolina - 21
Duke - 17
Kansas - 15
Villanova - 6

2023
UConn - 6
Miami (FL) - 1
San Diego State - 1
FAU - 1

2024
UConn - 7
NC State - 4
Purdue - 3
Alabama - 1

2025
Duke - 18
Houston - 7
Florida - 6
Auburn - 2

2026
UConn - 8
Michigan - 7
Illinois - 6
Arizona - 5

Just sort of an interesting snapshot in time. Some interesting anecdotes.

- 2026 is one of the most even across the board, with the ranking going 8-7-6-5.
- The biggest disparity for any given year for the most seasoned program to the most "newbie" was +19 in 2017. North Carolina was in its 20th Final Four, compared to 2 for Oregon and 1 debut appearance each for Gonzaga and South Carolina.
- 2008 was the first year on this list where more than 1 school had double digit Final Four appearances, with both North Carolina and UCLA having 17. :oops: It has since happened in 2012 (Kentucky 15, Kansas 14, Ohio State 10), 2015 (Kentucky 17, Duke 16) and 2022 (North Carolina 21, Duke 17, Kansas 15).
- In 2004, Oklahoma State had 3 times as many Final Fours as UConn. UConn now has as many National Championships as Oklahoma State has Final Fours... 🤯

And below are a few Illini-specific anecdotes.

- Michigan State tied us in 2000 (both at 4) and passed us in 2001 (4 vs. 5). They maintained that lead when we both made it in 2005 (5 vs. 6), and we have never been able to regain the lead since.
- Arizona tied us in 2001 (both at 4), we passed them in 2005 (5 vs. 4) and we maintained that lead in 2026 (6 vs. 5).
- Oklahoma tied us in 2002 (both at 4), we passed them again in 2005 (5 vs. 4), they tied us again in 2016 (both at 5) and we retook the lead in 2026 (6 vs. 5).
- Syracuse tied us in 2003 (both at 4), we passed them in 2005 (5 vs. 4), they tied us again in 2013 (both at 5), they passed us in 2016 (5 vs. 6) and finally we tied it again in 2026 (both at 6).
- We tied Houston in 2005 (both at 5), but they passed us in 2021 (5 vs. 6). Their 7th Final Four in 2025 prevented us from being able to tie them in 2026 (so it's now 6 vs. 7).
- We passed Georgetown in 2005 (5 vs. 4), they tied us in 2007 (both at 5) and we passed them again in 2026 (6 vs. 5).
- We passed Michigan in 2005 (5 vs. 4), they tied us in 2013 (both at 5), they passed us in 2018 (5 vs. 6), we tied them for a little less than a day in 2026 (6 vs. 6) before they beat Tennessee to retake the lead (6 vs. 7).
- Florida tied us in 2014 (both at 5), passed us in 2025 (5 vs. 6) and we tied them again in 2026 (both at 6).
- UConn also tied us in 2014 (both at 5) and actually didn't passed us until 2023 (5 vs. 6).
- Villanova did not even tie us until 2018 (both at 5), passed us in 2022 (5 vs. 6) and we tied them again in 2026 (both at 6).
- We tied Oklahoma State in 2026 (both at 6).
- Of schools not on this list (i.e., no Final Four appearances since 2000), we tied both Arkansas and Cincinnati at 6 in 2026.

TL;DR

1. This provides a really interesting snapshot into how quickly the popular perception of a program's all-time prestige can change. UConn is the obvious example. 15 years ago, Illinois had 5 Final Fours and 0 National Championships compared to UConn's 2 Final Fours and 2 National Championships ... you'd probably rank them ahead of us all-time based on the titles, but we had over twice as many Final Fours, so it's at least a debate. By 2026, that had changed to our 6 Final Fours and 0 National Championships vs. their 8 Final Fours and 6 National Championships, lol.

2. Illinois remains a criminally underrated program historically. I think making the Final Four again combined with us being consistently good has started to change that again, but we too often do NOT get talked about in the same breath of the Syracuse / Villanova / Michigan / Arizona types, and we absolutely should.

3. Your annual reminder that Maryland remains possibly the most overrated program historically. Their fans talk like they're nearly a Blue Blood, and the media always treats them like that next tier down. They have TWO Final Fours (fewer than Iowa) that came in a flash-in-the-pan span of TWO years, and they don't even come close to ranking in the top 15 historically for any category.
 
#196      
hooraybeer
ChiefGritty said:
So, any game (even at a neutral site) where Duke is the "home" team belongs to the ACC via the grant of rights, and therefore ESPN via the ACC's media deal. So what gives?



Meanwhile, at Wake Forest, Boston College et al
Hungry Dinner GIF
Click to expand...
yea i don’t understand this at all. so duke gets to solely benefit from these 3 majors matchups, which would otherwise benefit the entire conference? i have to imagine that if a big ten team tried to pull something similar, it would be shut down immediately. the ACC must just be bending the knee entirely to keep their cash cow happy
 
#197      
ChiefGritty
hooraybeer said:
yea i don’t understand this at all. so duke gets to solely benefit from these 3 majors matchups, which would otherwise benefit the entire conference? i have to imagine that if a big ten team tried to pull something similar, it would be shut down immediately. the ACC must just be bending the knee entirely to keep their cash cow happy
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I mean you'd think the ACC got some chunk of the money, but still.

It's no secret, the grant of rights is the only reason that conference still exists, and 2036 or whatever gets closer every year.
 
#198      
Battle89
Fighter of the Nightman said:
There was no great place to put this, but I was thinking how it was interesting that a lot of the popular narrative around the Final Four was that Illinois was somehow perceived as less prestigious than the other programs ... maybe others didn't encounter that, but it's a vibe I got. UConn I get and even to an extent Michigan, but we literally have more Final Fours than Arizona and had been to one more recently, haha. Anyway, I attended the Final Four, and it was cool when they introduced each team, they said the number of (officially, non-vacated) Final Four appearances each team now had. When I heard how surprisingly close all of the schools were clustered, it gave me an interest idea.

2. Illinois remains a criminally underrated program historically. I think making the Final Four again combined with us being consistently good has started to change that again, but we too often do NOT get talked about in the same breath of the Syracuse / Villanova / Michigan / Arizona types, and we absolutely should.

3. Your annual reminder that Maryland remains possibly the most overrated program historically. Their fans talk like they're nearly a Blue Blood, and the media always treats them like that next tier down. They have TWO Final Fours (fewer than Iowa) that came in a flash-in-the-pan span of TWO years, and they don't even come close to ranking in the top 15 historically for any category.
Click to expand...
1778013336402.png
;)

Arizona gets an inordinate amount of press / love / prestige because for years post-UCLA and pre-Gonzaga they were the only game in the West.

Each of these teams has something that Illinois does not, and to the rest of the world that counts for more.
 
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