Economics of AAU and Shoe Companies in Recruiting

Second and Chalmers said:

Illinois' recruiting has been very steady for a number of years now, dating back to the Paul/Richardson class (Weber may have hated the modern recruiting system, but Snacks didn't, nor did Jay Price, and as I said, that network exists whether the coach wants it to or not). We have long had and will continue to have the talent to win.

But yeah, Whitman played in the NFL. He understands the world talented young athletes live in as well.

I very strenuously doubt Groce would survive another miss of the Tournament (guys who "get it" as I said are not in short supply anymore. Good tactical coaches aren't either. Getting both in the same person can be tricky.), but 1. we'll see and 2. here's hoping we don't have to find out.

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These coaches know what is going on and try to distance themselves from it so they are not involved. Louisville recent "pole dancers" is a great example to where the coach would have had to know what was going on although he had himself protected with others to make the fall if it all went south !!

HoopCity said:

Louisville recent "pole dancers" is a great example to where the coach would have had to know what was going on although he had himself protected with others to make the fall if it all went south !!

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Better still if he doesn't know what's going on.

Recruits are on a visit, he shows them around the basketball facility, talks to the parents, leaves the kid with a player or an assistant and wishes them a fun evening. No need to dig any deeper than that.

There are layers of plausible deniability everywhere. Plus the code of omerta with respect to NCAA enforcement rivals that of the mob.

And with so much of this stuff trading hands as goods and services, not cash, the whole thing is impossible to trace or track.

And is any of this really a guarantee, a contract to sign with a certain school? Not really, not generally. It's all just influence peddling.

Second and Chalmers said:

Illinois' recruiting has been very steady for a number of years now, dating back to the Paul/Richardson class (Weber may have hated the modern recruiting system, but Snacks didn't, nor did Jay Price, and as I said, that network exists whether the coach wants it to or not). We have long had and will continue to have the talent to win.

But yeah, Whitman played in the NFL. He understands the world talented young athletes live in as well.

I very strenuously doubt Groce would survive another miss of the Tournament (guys who "get it" as I said are not in short supply anymore. Good tactical coaches aren't either. Getting both in the same person can be tricky.), but 1. we'll see and 2. here's hoping we don't have to find out.

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Amen to that.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought the new Nike deal was done with the interim chancellor in charge?

Epsilon said:

Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought the new Nike deal was done with the interim chancellor in charge?

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It was, yeah.

Second and Chalmers said:

It was, yeah.

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So I guess she gets it too.

Question: are the blue bloods "above" this morass by merit of their being a blue blood? Phrased another way, do the likes of Coach K and Calipari have to worry about shoes, or would their program's pedigrees or their magnetism as a coach transcend all that?

My 2 or 3 cents:

1. These issues only come into play with elite recruits, and as you get closer to the #1 player in the nation, the value goes up dramatically. If the rumors are true, for example, Drummond was worth $150-$200k as a collegiate signee. No clue if that amount is reliable, but it strikes me about right when you consider what pro and overseas players make, along with the preference of US high schoolers to go the college route. Conversely, it wouldn't surprise me if things are relatively clean/modest outside the top-100.
2. This is a problem that comes up mostly because there's so much money at stake. I say mostly, because even before there was a ton of money in college sports, there were ringers brought in by rich boosters who wanted to win. Consider that Elite coaches make several million each year. Shoe companies have far more at stake. AAU coaches I would expect have a tough road, but at the upper end of AAU, can get enough sponsorship to get by and then occasionally get a payday from the talent that passes through. You put enough money into something, and feeder markets will develop naturally.
3. People and programs who do this have had many decades now to get sophisticated about it. There are lots of convenient layers with AAU, agents, boosters, etc. to insulate the coach. I'm sure some coaches have to do some of the dirty work, but that's a sign that their booster network hasn't "matured" as they say in business.
4. Morally speaking, I personally don't see anything wrong with the people dedicating their lives to youth basketball, or the players themselves, working against the NCAA's desire to take the entire pie. The NCAA has plenty of great PR working on their behalf --non-profit, we give out scholarships, we support non-revenue sports, etc., but the bottom line is that the executives running the collegiate business aren't here for the charity work --they make a TON of money themselves, and answer to presidents of universities who also make good money.

I do think the program was squeaky clean under Weber to the extent Weber had control over it. I also think "clean" is not just in the hands of the head coach, though. For example, I strongly suspect that Izzo wouldn't participate in influencing recruits outside the rules, but people around the program would. Programs just aren't black and white these days, and lots of "influencers" can work independently.

So, how much does this play into sponsorship negotiations? Will a school accept a deal from Nike (or whoever) for less money in exchange for an understanding that they will funnel more money into AAU programs and steer more kids to Nike (or whoever) sponsored schools? Will the renewal depend in part (off the record) on how many top 100 kids from Nike (or whoever) AAU programs scheduled official visits at the school or tweeted the praises of the school?


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riffraff said:

So, how much does this play into sponsorship negotiations? Will a school accept a deal from Nike (or whoever) for less money in exchange for an understanding that they will funnel more money into AAU programs and steer more kids to Nike (or whoever) sponsored schools?

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I have no idea, but that wouldn't shock me. Especially someplace not like a Michigan or an Ohio State where there are really multi-multi millions of dollars in cash at stake in these deals, and especially where there's a real open bidding process among the big three shoe makers.

All of that aside, and even though we aren't their biggest client, Nike is a good horse to be riding, IMO.

Adnarel said:

Question: are the blue bloods "above" this morass by merit of their being a blue blood? Phrased another way, do the likes of Coach K and Calipari have to worry about shoes, or would their program's pedigrees or their magnetism as a coach transcend all that?

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Those programs are so deeply networked with apparel companies, NBA agents, former players (an oft-ignored factor), prominent boosters, alumni and fans as high school and AAU coaches, etc etc etc that the coaches themselves barely need to get involved. Even if they wanted to "clean" everything up they would have no means of doing so. Randy Shannon at Miami football is a great example of that.

That's true of Illinois too, but much much more true of a Kentucky or UNC.

But if your coach is not just a passive observer but actually a prominent and central member of these networks with long-term relationships to top-level people and the willingness and ability to work with the whole system, and he steps into a job that is already an A+, well, that's how Calipari's Kentucky happens.

BackDancing said:

Morally speaking, I personally don't see anything wrong with the people dedicating their lives to youth basketball, or the players themselves, working against the NCAA's desire to take the entire pie. The NCAA has plenty of great PR working on their behalf --non-profit, we give out scholarships, we support non-revenue sports, etc., but the bottom line is that the executives running the collegiate business aren't here for the charity work --they make a TON of money themselves, and answer to presidents of universities who also make good money.

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I couldn't agree more or have said it better myself :thumb:

I know when I played for the GA Stars back in the day Nike was a big reason we got to go to a lot of tournaments. Looking at it, a lot of the kids from the older Stars team and kids from the other team in the same age group as mine who went D1 primarily went to Nike schools

Never thought about it until now


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618MattD said:

My best friend played for one of the top Nike AAU teams when he was in high school. Every year he had to pay around $400 to play on the team which is pretty minimal compared to the actual cost. He also told me that if some of the kids couldn't come up with the money that the coaches would help him try to raise it but it wasn't that big of a deal because Nike was giving this team around $100,000 a year to cover expenses for tourneys, travel, and hotels.

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Yep my close friend was on a Nike AAU program and had an Illinois offer, the ride ended up going to Meyers. But he and his family had 0 money and managed to afford all of that stuff so there is for sure a lot that goes on behind the scenes. If we needed a pair of hyperdunks the only question asked was what size. It was crazy to see the inner workings.

A kid on his team was considering Cal, they got back from an AAU practice and there was a package in his locker from Cal, verbally committed that day.

Thought of a follow up question: any idea how much AAU coaches make? Is it a full time gig? Just wondering about the AAU to college assistant transition that seems to happen so often now. Is it more of an opportunity that a coach can't afford to pass up, or is there an immediate impact to salary?

Epsilon said:

Thought of a follow up question: any idea how much AAU coaches make? Is it a full time gig? Just wondering about the AAU to college assistant transition that seems to happen so often now. Is it more of an opportunity that a coach can't afford to pass up, or is there an immediate impact to salary?

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The experience I have with the local Nike AAU is that most if not all of the coaches are high school coaches in the area that played in college

618MattD said:

The experience I have with the local Nike AAU is that most if not all of the coaches are high school coaches in the area that played in college

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Depends on the situation. Some states, like Texas where I live and coach, don't allow active high school coaches to coach aau. You can do one or the other. This is supposed to help limit the aau/high school connection to keep the high school teams on the uil practice schedule. However, most coaches are dirty and has their aau contact guy who helps send kids to their high school.

As far as what aau coaches make, this is part of the gray area of aau. There is literally nothing stopping a slimy aau coach from pocketing large amounts of money the kids pay to play or fundraise.

FiveStar said:

Depends on the situation.

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I have only talked with a couple coaches, so I don't have a lot to go on, but from what little I know, I think it varies wildly. I mean really wildly. Some coaches make so little, it can't possibly cover the time and incidentals they spend on it. AAU requires organizing, travel, etc. for a decent sized roster and tournaments can be far away. I think the coaches who regularly have top-100 talent can make a decent amount, but that's not many.

[FONT=&quot]"Assault on Assault" The Rise & Fall of DC Assault AAU[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Just stumbled on this doc today. Very interesting look at AAU from the mid 90s to the present, shoe brand wars, handlers, 'playing the game', gray areas, the NCAA not being able to and/or not wanting to regulate the unregulatable. All of it resulting from commodity meeting capitalism. And primarily through the prism of Curtis Malone and DC Assault, once one of the premier AAU clubs in the country. NSFW song lyrics and movie clips. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGKaHQEjSg4[/FONT]

DC Assault is one of the most recognized programs in AAU basketball, with alumni like Melo Trimble, Jeff Green, Michael Beasley, Keith Bogans and Nolan Smith, among others. Assault on Assault is a new documentary that chronicles the wild success and ensuing hardships of the DC Assault. The film also goes into depth about the capitalistic motives of youth basketball across the country.

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FiveStar said:

Depends on the situation. Some states, like Texas where I live and coach, don't allow active high school coaches to coach aau. You can do one or the other. This is supposed to help limit the aau/high school connection to keep the high school teams on the uil practice schedule. However, most coaches are dirty and has their aau contact guy who helps send kids to their high school.

As far as what aau coaches make, this is part of the gray area of aau. There is literally nothing stopping a slimy aau coach from pocketing large amounts of money the kids pay to play or fundraise.

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Interesting. I was just talking with someone who said a friend of his coached high school ball for about $35k, and AAU ball for $100k. This was in Kentucky.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the ROI of these deals.

LisaMarie said:

Interesting. I was just talking with someone who said a friend of his coached high school ball for about $35k, and AAU ball for $100k. This was in Kentucky.

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the ROI of these deals.

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Looks like I'm moving to Kentucky!

I coach AAU as I have stated before. Our program, like most others that we play, cover coaches expenses for their travel. Our coaches receive a small stipend at the end of the summer (it's not easy to find quality coaches to spend their whole spring/summer traveling for free). I would be shocked if an AAU coach was making $100k anywhere as your friend stated, but there are some slimy people in every business. But honestly, it is a capitalist society, and AAU coaching is a ton of work (wayyyyyy more work when dealing with parents of AAU type kids because everyone is usually a star where they come from and many get an eye opener on the AAU circuit). If someone thinks it's slimy to give a coach a small stipend (we don't overcharge people to make money, but our coaches do make a small stipend which amounts to less than minimum wage for the amount of hours they put in most likely) than I guess we're slimy. If their is money left over at the end of the summer for our program, we use it to buy training tools for next season or new basketballs. Like I said, this isn't the Mac Irvin Fire's of the world, but that is how our program works.

HoopsCoach said:

I coach AAU as I have stated before. Our program, like most others that we play, cover coaches expenses for their travel. Our coaches receive a small stipend at the end of the summer (it's not easy to find quality coaches to spend their whole spring/summer traveling for free). I would be shocked if an AAU coach was making $100k anywhere as your friend stated, but there are some slimy people in every business. But honestly, it is a capitalist society, and AAU coaching is a ton of work (wayyyyyy more work when dealing with parents of AAU type kids because everyone is usually a star where they come from and many get an eye opener on the AAU circuit). If someone thinks it's slimy to give a coach a small stipend (we don't overcharge people to make money, but our coaches do make a small stipend which amounts to less than minimum wage for the amount of hours they put in most likely) than I guess we're slimy. If their is money left over at the end of the summer for our program, we use it to buy training tools for next season or new basketballs. Like I said, this isn't the Mac Irvin Fire's of the world, but that is how our program works.

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I don't think it's slimy, unless a coach is exerting undue influence on where a kid goes to school. That is shameful.

LisaMarie said:

I don't think it's slimy, unless a coach is exerting undue influence on where a kid goes to school. That is shameful.

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That I agree with that 100%. I help inform my players about colleges because I've been through the process and seen others go through it, but I would never tell a kid where to go. I have had a player go to my colleges biggest rival, and never once said a negative thing about that school or coach, because I respect all coaches and if it is in the best interest of that kid, than more power to them as far as where they go.:thumb:

Second and Chalmers said:

Speaking of the economics, people were a bit confused about our new Nike deal suddenly quadrupling the amount of gear we get, in lieu of cash.

Well, that's a bit like quadrupling the amount of cigarettes you've got in prison. Shoes and gear are currency in this economy. Not only will we be adding to the swag our players get for being on the team, not just in game uniforms but all sorts of Nike goodies to wear around campus, don't be the least bit surprised to see that gear end up on the backs and feet of recruits we want.

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That all adds up, but for some reason the basketball team is outfit in pretty dated performance basketball shoes. We're generally well behind the upper tier programs in terms of that season's basketball footwear selection. Just scanning this year's photo day, for instance, and we're a full year behind Duke.

Yeah, I'm a sneakerhead.