Borrowing a phrase from JW...Fighter, you are the goods.I have four comments regarding this. They're not necessarily meant as direct rebuttals to you, as you bring up some good points ... I just like talking about this stuff, haha.
1) I find it odd that we are acting like this is some radical idea. The students were in East Main for W-A-Y longer than they have been in the NEZ, and the DIA found a way to make it work economically during years where we were frankly drawing way fewer fans than we are now, not to mention getting SO much less money from the Big Ten distributions. The radical idea was RG moving them to the NEZ in the first place. So, I am so incredibly skeptical that it's just some financial impossibility. This attitude also assumes that there is no long-term financial gain from dramatically improving the gameday atmosphere ... a short-term cost of lost revenue in literally two sections of the stadium could very well be outweighed by the future gains from more victories at home because of a better environment, more casual fans starting to think of GMS as an elite atmosphere that they want to visit once per year regardless of how good we are, one extra difference-maker recruit per year being impressed with our fan support and it potentially being the tie breaker between us and someone else, etc. I mean, guys, imagine if Orange Krush had always been up in C Section for the last 30+ years ... how much pushback would we get that we simply can't give up such good, revenue-earning seats and give them to college kids?? Thankfully we decided not to think that way a long time ago, but if the decision were being made today, there would no doubt be a lot of opposition, and I would argue that it would be short sighted.
2) We really aren't talking about that many seats, and I will be referencing the map below. IIRC, the NEZ (132-137) seats like 5.5K or something like that. Let's just assume for a moment that is true, and we need to find 5K seats elsewhere. Per Wikipedia, East Main seats 18K, so I am assuming each section (101-109) seats 2K each. Let's start with 109, as the fact that visiting fans are still taking up 109 is nothing short of negligence on the part of the DIA, and they should feel ashamed for such a dumb placement. That is a literally FREE section to work with. Let's act like a big boy program and move the visiting fans to 201 or 209 where they belong, and we have now found a home for 2K of our 5.5K students ... 3.5K to go. 104-106 are the only sections in East Main that are marked as "prime" seating, so I will assume we don't want students there ... and that's fine! However, even just giving the students 108 (i.e., right next to 109 to now have a 2-section student section in East Main) gets us up to 4K out of our 5.5K students. Ideally, we would just give them 107, as well, but let's say we absolutely cannot ... we only have 1.5K seats we need to find, so put some in the 110-111 corners of the Horseshoe or up in 207-208 in the East Balcony to pin the visiting fans between a rowdy student section and a brick wall. This just is NOT that hard ... the DIA is just being complacent and unimaginative.
3) The issue really shouldn't be giving the students prime seating or not ... hardly anywhere gives them the best seats, and plenty of awesome student sections are behind one end zone! The issue is that at our stadium, both end zone seating areas are not in any way, shape or form "on top of the field," and any student section that isn't going to absolutely and totally suck needs to be right on top of the players. If the NEZ structure had been built at field level at a super steep incline, it would be a perfectly fine place for the students! Instead, it's like 30 frickin' feet up in the air and extending back at a gradual angle, making them feel even more removed from the action. We don't need to discuss the Horseshoe's issues, being ten miles from the end zone, lol. I would love to put the students in whatever structure we build in the SEZ, but I am sure people will think that is financially unrealistic, too, as they'll want to make money on those brand new seats. I think an ideal scenario is a "wall" of students in the middle of the new SEZ stands, with luxury suites above them and revenue-generating (perhaps actual seats and not bleachers??) on either side of them.
4) I think part of the problem with students leaving early might BE the NEZ itself. As others pointed out, it is the most sun-drenched area of the stadium, and it feels cutoff from the rest of the stands. If students felt like they were a part of the same rowdy crowd as all 61K of us, it might seem more fun. I've never sat in the NEZ, so I am only guessing here.
Gies Memorial Stadium
- Status
Conversely, we had 30,000 domestic students fifty years ago compared to 45,000 domestics students today. The growing international portion of the student body isn’t what’s driving weak game attendance, either by students or alumni. Mr Pareto would have us focus on the growing domestic student body.
Maybe it’s more of a generational lack of interest in sports? However, other schools draw passionate student fans. Do we suffer from lack of enthusiasm for the team after decades of weakness or for the game-day experience itself? Most of today’s students have only known a winning team. The answer might lie in figuring out why so many students leave after the half. We can rule out the NEZ seats because they fade away from 101-102 as well.
Someone should survey students re: reasons for early game departures. Address this and you boost both attendance and enthusiasm, while growing alumni fans.
I know in the past, the greek system (fraternities) were a big driver of pregaming and game attendance as, we'd pregame for all games and bring sororities with and watch as a group. Not sure if that has fallen off a lot too.
Stevegarbs
- Mokena, IL
Greek pre-gaming and game "attendance" has switched to happening at bars. Confused me greatly when my daughter explained the level of effort to get ready for and attend these events, which was every bit as involved as attending the game with the exception of not actually setting foot in the stadium. The accessibility of alcohol at a bar during the game is a factor. I don't know if that has changed now that you can buy alcohol in the stadium, perhaps the assumed more strict age requirements have the same influence.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Yep, I am obviously in Chicago and a non-alum fan, so someone please correct me if I am speaking from a place of ignorance ... but my understanding is this was a huge problem for the tailgating / gameday atmosphere at Illinois the most circa 2010-2019 or so. My impression is it has gotten a lot better, but I am sure the bars that host these fraternities and sororities have a very vested interest in keeping them pouring in on gamedays! I still go back to Iowa City (where my parents live) to tailgate with some high school friends once per year, and I can confidently say tailgating culture takes a long time to develop but also is DEEPLY ingrained once it's there. It seems Illinois is moving in the right direction, but ideally we need a freshman at U of I being indoctrinated on day one that THE place to be on a college football Saturday is at an outdoor tailgate and that anything else is sacrilegious ... because I promise you that is the attitude at 90%+ of campuses and 100% of those that are thought of as having the best gameday environments!
A lot left at halftime of Ohio State
When we still had a decent shot at a big upset. I just don’t get it.
bdutts
- Houston, Texas
I was at UIUC from 86-89 and not once did I tailgate and I believe that was during the TailGreat years. We usually started with breakfast beers at our apartment then snuck in boda bags filled with various spirits. It wasn't until after I graduated that I tailgated. How I wished I had done it when I was in school. Nothing is better for pregame festivities as tailgating. Nothing else compares.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Only somewhat off-topic here, but asking some type of expert and /or person who understands acoustics better than I do to help explain some key things a renovation of Memorial Stadium would need to do to help make it as loud as possible beyond the obvious. Like, everybody understands that the Big House is quieter than it should be for over 100,000 people because the slope of the stands is SO comically gradual that it lets a ton of noise escape. On the other end of the spectrum, I think everyone gets that Tennessee's Neyland Stadium being so loud because it is a completely enclosed, double decker bowl that has very steep stands, and thus the noise is totally enclosed. Simple enough - enclose your stadium and have steep stands.
However, why is somewhere like Kinnick Stadium one of the loudest in the country (and I have been there many times and can ABSOLUTELY attest to this, BTW)? Some fans will say it's more enclosed than Memorial Stadium (and it is), but look at this photo...
Again, there are some obvious reasons - the stands are close the field, it IS more enclosed than somewhere like Memorial Stadium, etc. However, the slope of the stands isn't any steeper than MS, it doesn't have the balcony on either side to have noise bounce off of and there is actually a lot more open space in the corners than many realize. Obviously there is SOMETHING about the layout than can make it so materially louder than the Big House (a totally enclosed bowl) despite having like 40,000 fewer seats!
So back to the main topic, are there key open areas of Memorial Stadium that should be enclosed to maximize crowd noise beyond just trying to enclose it all? Showing an aerial view photo from both ends for context.
Put another way, if we address one obvious issue like bring the Horseshoe closer to the field and building a taller structure in that area, will it only have a limited effect if we leave the NEZ as is, with those big gaps in the corner? Or is there a way to sort of "game the system" as far as crowd noise? Lol. I highly doubt we will see a totally enclosed, 360 bowl any time soon, but I want whatever we do next to REALLY consider maximizing crowd noise. Memorial Stadium is already shockingly loud given all of the open space behind both end zones, so it seems like we are already working with a pretty good acoustic setup, despite what you might assume with all of our open space. I would hope any renovation tries to build on that!
However, why is somewhere like Kinnick Stadium one of the loudest in the country (and I have been there many times and can ABSOLUTELY attest to this, BTW)? Some fans will say it's more enclosed than Memorial Stadium (and it is), but look at this photo...
Again, there are some obvious reasons - the stands are close the field, it IS more enclosed than somewhere like Memorial Stadium, etc. However, the slope of the stands isn't any steeper than MS, it doesn't have the balcony on either side to have noise bounce off of and there is actually a lot more open space in the corners than many realize. Obviously there is SOMETHING about the layout than can make it so materially louder than the Big House (a totally enclosed bowl) despite having like 40,000 fewer seats!
So back to the main topic, are there key open areas of Memorial Stadium that should be enclosed to maximize crowd noise beyond just trying to enclose it all? Showing an aerial view photo from both ends for context.
Put another way, if we address one obvious issue like bring the Horseshoe closer to the field and building a taller structure in that area, will it only have a limited effect if we leave the NEZ as is, with those big gaps in the corner? Or is there a way to sort of "game the system" as far as crowd noise? Lol. I highly doubt we will see a totally enclosed, 360 bowl any time soon, but I want whatever we do next to REALLY consider maximizing crowd noise. Memorial Stadium is already shockingly loud given all of the open space behind both end zones, so it seems like we are already working with a pretty good acoustic setup, despite what you might assume with all of our open space. I would hope any renovation tries to build on that!
Stevegarbs
- Mokena, IL
Yep my comment comes from having kids there from 2009-2016. They still don't forgive us for selling them on the amazing football and basketball experiences their mother and I had on campus from 1982-1988...
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Yep, there are few better feelings than cracking open a cold one in perfect Fall weather and anticipating a college football game coming up later that day! I will say, Grange Grove has had an INCREDIBLY positive impact on the tailgating atmosphere around Memorial Stadium. Some friends and I took a road trip for our loss to Wisconsin in 2011 (part of the 6-game slide after starting 6-0 that year, lol...), and we met a friend's relatives who had a tailgating spot in what is now Grange Grove but was then donor lots. Zero disrespect to those folks (they hosted us, after all!), but WOW was that a sterile atmosphere to have right next to your stadium. Being there with folks who were used to tailgating at Iowa and Wisconsin, I was a little embarrassed.
Grange Grove can still improve and our tailgating will continue to improve if we remain competitive as a program, but the basic gameday setup today is so many light years better than it was circa 2011. Hopefully more and more students / student groups can begin to cultivate a tradition and expectation that that's the place to be!
Shief
- Champaign Area
Great commentary as usual @Fighter of the Nightman.Only somewhat off-topic here, but asking some type of expert and /or person who understands acoustics better than I do to help explain some key things a renovation of Memorial Stadium would need to do to help make it as loud as possible beyond the obvious. Like, everybody understands that the Big House is quieter than it should be for over 100,000 people because the slope of the stands is SO comically gradual that it lets a ton of noise escape. On the other end of the spectrum, I think everyone gets that Tennessee's Neyland Stadium being so loud because it is a completely enclosed, double decker bowl that has very steep stands, and thus the noise is totally enclosed. Simple enough - enclose your stadium and have steep stands.
However, why is somewhere like Kinnick Stadium one of the loudest in the country (and I have been there many times and can ABSOLUTELY attest to this, BTW)? Some fans will say it's more enclosed than Memorial Stadium (and it is), but look at this photo...
Again, there are some obvious reasons - the stands are close the field, it IS more enclosed than somewhere like Memorial Stadium, etc. However, the slope of the stands isn't any steeper than MS, it doesn't have the balcony on either side to have noise bounce off of and there is actually a lot more open space in the corners than many realize. Obviously there is SOMETHING about the layout than can make it so materially louder than the Big House (a totally enclosed bowl) despite having like 40,000 fewer seats!
So back to the main topic, are there key open areas of Memorial Stadium that should be enclosed to maximize crowd noise beyond just trying to enclose it all? Showing an aerial view photo from both ends for context.
Put another way, if we address one obvious issue like bring the Horseshoe closer to the field and building a taller structure in that area, will it only have a limited effect if we leave the NEZ as is, with those big gaps in the corner? Or is there a way to sort of "game the system" as far as crowd noise? Lol. I highly doubt we will see a totally enclosed, 360 bowl any time soon, but I want whatever we do next to REALLY consider maximizing crowd noise. Memorial Stadium is already shockingly loud given all of the open space behind both end zones, so it seems like we are already working with a pretty good acoustic setup, despite what you might assume with all of our open space. I would hope any renovation tries to build on that!
Somewhere in this thread it was pitched to remove X number of rows from the ESL and WSL lower 'bowl' and then rebuild them at a shallower angle and add some additional rows to bring the crowd closer to the SLs, add some capacity, and have a higher wall behind the team benches. It is my understanding that the minimum recommended rise-over-run for bleacher seats is roughly 1/3, and I believe that the lower ESL and WSL are close to that today. We might need to go back to the portals, or roughly 25 rows back, to make an impact. We may also want to see if the field can be lowered a few feet - and pay attention to the high water table of Central Illinois that we have discussed previously - but performing both operations may help with the overall process. If 5x rows can be added to the SLs, then we would probably add ~2.7k to the stadium capacity (30 seats per row x 5 rows x 9 sections per SL x 2 SLs).
I also agree that we somehow need to 'enclose' and tighten-up the stadium to help keep fan noise in. I would like to see a rebuilt SEZ horseshoe that has the first rows just a bit behind the back of the EZ, rows can also be added to the back/top of the SEZ structure if desired. I have not been a fan of the NEZ structure and would like to see a new structure take its place, either the ~2016 'wall' or finish the lower 'bowl'. If the rebuilt stadium capacity is too high, then we could remove a seat or two from each row to trim things by a few percentage points.
RabidDawgClassic
- Los Angeles, CA
In the 1980’s, tailgating at Illinois games was huge. This was the TailGreat era, and while I think that branding helped, a bigger factor was fun, winning football fed directly into the veins of a hungry fanbase.
Somewhere in the 90s tailgating died down. A large part of that had to do with a mediocre to losing product on the field but I think a more underrated factor in the tailgating reduction was the change in start times. In the 80s, most games began at 1pm. If you were the big game of the week, you’d start at 2:30pm. Occasionally you’d have a night game. Either way, those start times were conducive to arriving at your lot, firing up the grill, cracking open a brew and having lunch before kickoff. Now, with so many 11am kickoffs, any tailgate essentially breakfast. And the chillier it gets, the colder those early morning set ups are.
Love it! Can't wait to see how it looks! I'm imagining final project will be super rectangular. Perhaps slightly taller than the existing one, but certainly much wider.
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
These pictures were posted in a previous GMS thread regarding the new scoreboard:
So if you try to estimate those same size enhancements on an actual picture of the SEZ / current scoreboard, this might be an idea of a before and after:
If a proper renovation of the SEZ is multiple years from becoming a reality, I REALLY wish we would find a temporary, relatively inexpensive way to close some of the dead space on either side of the scoreboard. If the new scoreboard is going to take up that much space, it REALLY wouldn't be very difficult or take much effort to put something in both corners to enclose the SEZ for the time being and help to trap noise and improve our gameday atmosphere. I would love something cooler, but let's assume the DIA wouldn't want to spend too much since the whole SEZ structure might be scrapped soon ... something like this would be a great temporary fix. Please no one get focused on the bad MS Paint job and use your imagination, haha...
Again, I would obviously prefer a proper renovation and for a much, much taller structure in that space. However, in the meantime, why not help enclose it?? Way too much noise escapes on either end of our stadium.
Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
Yes but how does this impact our dreams (and perhaps they are just that, dreams) for a wholly-renovated horseshoe with seats going high up and steeper, the oft-mentioned 'wall' of seats? Hard to imagine they are paying $15-20M today for a structure that would just get moved or changed a few years later.
Edit: as usual @Fighter of the Nightman beat me to it
Fighter of the Nightman
- Chicago, IL
Paging all engineers or architects or whatever, but couldn't the scoreboard be incorporated into the new SEZ structure on top, similarly to how it was in the 2016 rendering?Yes but how does this impact our dreams (and perhaps they are just that, dreams) for a wholly-renovated horseshoe with seats going high up and steeper, the oft-mentioned 'wall' of seats? Hard to imagine they are paying $15-20M today for a structure that would just get moved or changed a few years later.
Edit: as usual @Fighter of the Nightman beat me to it
This new one would obviously take up more space, but I assume they could do a similar idea? Then you would get to keep the brand new scoreboard and would presumably just eat the costs of whatever is going to hold it up off the ground pre-renovation.
Shief
- Champaign Area
Great work as always @Fighter of the Nightman. Completely agree with trying to keep sound inside the stadium. Having the wider video board and side 'banners' should help with that process.These pictures were posted in a previous GMS thread regarding the new scoreboard:
So if you try to estimate those same size enhancements on an actual picture of the SEZ / current scoreboard, this might be an idea of a before and after:
View attachment 45577
If a proper renovation of the SEZ is multiple years from becoming a reality, I REALLY wish we would find a temporary, relatively inexpensive way to close some of the dead space on either side of the scoreboard. If the new scoreboard is going to take up that much space, it REALLY wouldn't be very difficult or take much effort to put something in both corners to enclose the SEZ for the time being and help to trap noise and improve our gameday atmosphere. I would love something cooler, but let's assume the DIA wouldn't want to spend too much since the whole SEZ structure might be scrapped soon ... something like this would be a great temporary fix. Please no one get focused on the bad MS Paint job and use your imagination, haha...
View attachment 45578
Again, I would obviously prefer a proper renovation and for a much, much taller structure in that space. However, in the meantime, why not help enclose it?? Way too much noise escapes on either end of our stadium.
Long term, I look forward to seeing what might happen with the NEZ. Hopefully whatever comes will help keep sound in and make GMS a difficult place for opposing teams to play.
Battle89
- Cary-Grove, the better Trojan team
I'm not an engineer or architect, but I am a Finance guy. I did include this thought in my post when I said 'moved', but do not discount the overall costs of the bolded above, nor the additional costs of incorporating and moving the scoreboard in the new structure, nor the unwillingness of the accounting guys to eat the undepreciated asset costs. That is a lot of Benjamins.
And strictly as a fan (with old eyes to boot), I will love the big scoreboard. However (and speaking in a general sense, I know specific donations are not necessarily earmarked for specific things), I already don't love that 15-20% of the value of the Gies gift is going to that one item. And if we move / eat some costs later, will it end being 20-25% of the value. There is so much more I'd like done about the stadium and the stadium experience, all of which has been discussed here before. Not to mention NIL set-asides, etc.
skamin7
- Wellington, FL
As a former student who seemed to always have our tickets in sec 107 each of my four years, I am not a fan of the endzone seating. Both of my kids attend the University of Florida and let me tell you, having a student side verse just an endzone is still the way to go. The student section in the swamp is always amazing and they are right on top of the visiting team as well as bumped up against the visiting fan section which only increases the home field advantage. I know we are talking apples and oranges when comparing the amount of students who attend the games, but it an amazing feeling to see the fan involvement in every play. The noise that is created is deafening and such a fun thing to be a part of (even when the team pretty much stinks). I know that the university won't ever give up those prime seats again for students but something needs to be figured out to get that stadium to close the gap a bit in the home field advantage part of the game.
I thought we were getting a videoboard in the north end zone for next season?
My understanding is they were already planning on this new scoreboard (i.e. the money was ready and earmarked for it) prior to Gies's donation. That should mean his 100 million would be in play for something else and not funding this. But I could be wrong.
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