Illini Basketball 2018-2019

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#376      
I'm relatively confident we can achieve adequacy in that department, but that's because I'm projecting sane lineup construction.

If you add up the minimum amount of game time and stat contribution from each player necessary to avoid snark and eye-rolling gifs from this board, I think we're going to be playing games that are about 75 minutes long and scoring roughly 280 points per ;)

The fact is, you have really no idea how Ayo, Feliz, our freshmen, and transfer bigs are going to guard, nor a sophomore Frazier for that matter. It is a subjective opinion based on.........gas? I'll go with that.
 
#377      
:confused: You can't see Damonte starting in place of Feliz? So you don't see how TF, Ayo, and DMW can play together? But you can see Feliz, TF, and Ayo?

Quite the opposite...I am very PRO DaMonte starting and believe he will in some capacities as well as Jordan also...although to a lesser extent.
 
#378      
agree alot of possible combinations. I think its somewhat futile to guess on starters considering BU started 10 different players LY ... minutes were fairly evenly distributed from 15 to 25 min (TF highest at 26 min per game). Many starting combos ahead. MS started ahead of TF early last year and we know how that ended up.

Agreed, positionless basketball, many will get starter minutes, if even off the bench, positionless.
 
#379      
Ebo with offers from Louisiana Tech, SIU, & Northeastern. Interest from UMass, Buffalo and Niagara.
 
#381      
Quite the opposite...I am very PRO DaMonte starting and believe he will in some capacities as well as Jordan also...although to a lesser extent.

:thumb:

I hope Damonte starts as well. Mostly because I was a huge Frankie fan, and think Damonte shows tons of potential. I do see how we COULD start a number of people in that spot, though.
 
#382      
Explain to me again why he left? Wow!

He was going to get playing time this year but we were always going to recruit over him. The most minutes he would receive was going to be as a sophomore and he had to know that. I doubt that's the whole story but it had to have an effect.
 
#383      

Joel Goodson

respect my decision™
He was going to get playing time this year but we were always going to recruit over him. The most minutes he would receive was going to be as a sophomore and he had to know that. I doubt that's the whole story but it had to have an effect.

Spot on.
 
#384      
Since we're doing guided meditation here I don't want to give anyone a bad trip by causing them to picture Trent, Feliz, Ayo and choose your Illini "bigs" out there trying to guard anybody.

Trent was 2nd in the B1G in steals and was a fine defender last year. Add to that increased strength and jumping ability from off season conditioning (good job Fletch!), and you have an even better defender. Ayo's defense was also noted at the U18 tourney as being especially good. I haven't seen enough of Feliz to comment, but Da'Monte is going to be a superior defender as well with increased strength and more confidence in his knee. I have confidence hat our wing/guard D will be good and that Kipper will be solid at the 4. Post defense, we'll see.
 
#385      
He was going to get playing time this year but we were always going to recruit over him. The most minutes he would receive was going to be as a sophomore and he had to know that. I doubt that's the whole story but it had to have an effect.

Exactly, Ebo saw the writing on the wall that our upward trajectory was going to leave him behind sooner than later. I'll be rooting for him.
 
#386      
He was going to get playing time this year but we were always going to recruit over him. The most minutes he would receive was going to be as a sophomore and he had to know that. I doubt that's the whole story but it had to have an effect.

I'm not convinced, not many kids think they will play next year & then get beat out down the road. If you know you are playing next year, why not wait it out & see where you stand, there is still a good chance he is a starter 2 years out. His comments were pretty cyrptic/vague, wanted to be happy, international student...personally I thought it was more a combination of fit with Underwood and/or Champaign, but that list doesn't scream location.
 
#387      
Trent Frazier is really good with the ball in his hands.

I appreciate your lack of blind optimism, S&C -- it's a refreshing change of pace for this board. But this is a bad reason/argument for why you think Feliz is overhyped. Just because Frazier is good with the ball and will have the ball a lot doesn't diminish the *potential* skill that Feliz *potentially* possesses that is leading to the hype.

Also, on another note, I think a lineup of Frazier, Ayo, and Monte is more feasible than Feliz, Ayo, and Frazier. Monte has the size, wingspan, tenacity, and skill to defend larger 3s. I doubt Ayo yet has the skill or bulk to hold his own against an opposing 3, which makes the Feliz, Frazier, Ayo combo tough to play.
 
#388      
Just because Frazier is good with the ball and will have the ball a lot doesn't diminish the *potential* skill that Feliz *potentially* possesses that is leading to the hype.

Oh yeah, I agree with that. I think Feliz might be good, he appears to be a better fit for Lucas' role than Te'Jon was.

Also, on another note, I think a lineup of Frazier, Ayo, and Monte is more feasible than Feliz, Ayo, and Frazier. Monte has the size, wingspan, tenacity, and skill to defend larger 3s. I doubt Ayo yet has the skill or bulk to hold his own against an opposing 3, which makes the Feliz, Frazier, Ayo combo tough to play.

And I also completely agree with this, and that's how the two fit together.

Frazier is the best guy we've got, it seems unrealistic to say that Feliz could push him out of the lineup. And it also seems hard to believe that we'd put him AND Feliz on the floor together for long stretches, for the reason you're outlining here.

"Feliz was brought in to run the show and will start" is a narrative being pushed by a lot of the same posters as "the roster turnover was a culture change and we will be much better this year" so the two are kind of getting intermingled, but they are separate arguments.

Regardless of how good or bad we are next year, I don't see how starting Feliz would put our best lineup on the floor, unless he just flat outplays Frazier (or maybe Ayo) and I know that's not what these posters are trying to say.
 
#389      
Seeing last year's high pressure D (with full court pressure this year?), along with BU's quick trigger to pull guys for silly mistakes (fouls, turnovers - a lot of freshman this year), I foresee a lot of guys getting many opportunities to play and a lot of mix/match, regardless of who starts.
 
#390      

IlliniDent

Chicago, IL
I'm relatively confident we can achieve adequacy in that department, but that's because I'm projecting sane lineup construction.

If you add up the minimum amount of game time and stat contribution from each player necessary to avoid snark and eye-rolling gifs from this board, I think we're going to be playing games that are about 75 minutes long and scoring roughly 280 points per ;)

As always it’s the attitude that you present your opinions that’s causes snark and eye rolling. To say that we will never see Feliz, Frazier, Ayo together on the court with that level of confidence is wothy of snark. Frazier was one of our best defensive players and by all accounts Ayo should be as well. It’s not hard to imagine Ayo and Frazier with one of damonte or Feliz, with kipper at the 4 and whoever wins out at the center spot. Feliz or Damonte is likely the first of the bench to start the season if Ayo is good enough to start.

It may or may not happen and all of us are basing this on last year and a few reports. Like most years we will likely start with about 10 guys getting regular minutes and have that cut to 9 as the season progresses. This offense works much better when the ball isn’t stuck in one guys hands and having 3 guys that can score and create will help drastically to improve our offense. We know our weakness is going to be at the 5, but for the first time in a while we actually have different quality combinations of guards that we can put out there and because of the offense, it doesn’t truly matter who players the 1 vs the 2 vs the 3.
 
#391      
CBU has talked many times about his system being one big and 4 guard/wings oriented. He proved that many times at SFA and OkSU. He has commented many times about Villanova playing 3 pt guards in the FF and that he envisions a lineup of Feliz, Ayo and TF. Ayo has commented about the same thing. When we were so assist starved last year (11th in conference) and lost our top assist man, it's difficult to not see a +6 apg guy in the starting lineup. I'll eat Goldie's crow sandwich if he doesn't start.:)
 
#392      

IlliniDent

Chicago, IL
CBU has talked many times about his system being one big and 4 guard/wings oriented. He proved that many times at SFA and OkSU. He has commented many times about Villanova playing 3 pt guards in the FF and that he envisions a lineup of Feliz, Ayo and TF. Ayo has commented about the same thing. When we were so assist starved last year (11th in conference) and lost our top assist man, it's difficult to not see a +6 apg guy in the starting lineup. I'll eat Goldie's crow sandwich if he doesn't start.:)

Exactly and it doesn’t even mean that is the combination that will primarily play together or will be our starting line up through the season. However it absolutely is something we are likely to see at least attempted this year.
 
#393      
As always it’s the attitude that you present your opinions that’s causes snark and eye rolling. To say that we will never see Feliz, Frazier, Ayo together on the court with that level of confidence is wothy of snark.

Perhaps so. But that is not even close to anything I said.

It’s likely that Ayo and Frazier will start as the wings with Feliz running the point. That’s what Feliz was brought in to do.

Good problem to have. Feliz was brought in to run the team. The coaches are high on him in that role.

He has commented many times...that he envisions a lineup of Feliz, Ayo and TF.

it's difficult to not see a +6 apg guy in the starting lineup.

This is what I am responding to.

I do not believe Feliz will be a starter, nor do I think he will be among our top minutes-getters. In both cases barring injury or severely disappointing years from Trent and/or Ayo. That is my argument.

DaMonte and AJ are both being severely underrated by that narrative, in my view, especially because what their presence on the floor would mean for our defensive versatility. Those two can guard wings, whereas Trent and Feliz will have an uphill battle trying to do so, or even stopping bigger guards.

Having said all of that, it is true that Underwood plays a lot of guys and likes to mix and match and experiment with lineups, so I have no doubt that at some point Trent, Ayo and Feliz will be on the floor at the same time.

Still, a lot of the constant lineup tinkering last year emerged from Underwood's inability to know what he was getting from anybody on a game-to-game basis, something he was very public about. So counter-intuitively, I think improvement up and down the roster would likely lead to a shorter bench and more consistent lineups logging more sustained minutes, rather than the other way around.
 
#394      

IlliniDent

Chicago, IL
Perhaps so. But that is not even close to anything I said.







This is what I am responding to.

I do not believe Feliz will be a starter, nor do I think he will be among our top minutes-getters. In both cases barring injury or severely disappointing years from Trent and/or Ayo. That is my argument.

DaMonte and AJ are both being severely underrated by that narrative, in my view, especially because what their presence on the floor would mean for our defensive versatility. Those two can guard wings, whereas Trent and Feliz will have an uphill battle trying to do so, or even stopping bigger guards.

Having said all of that, it is true that Underwood plays a lot of guys and likes to mix and match and experiment with lineups, so I have no doubt that at some point Trent, Ayo and Feliz will be on the floor at the same time.

Still, a lot of the constant lineup tinkering last year emerged from Underwood's inability to know what he was getting from anybody on a game-to-game basis, something he was very public about. So counter-intuitively, I think improvement up and down the roster would likely lead to a shorter bench and more consistent lineups logging more sustained minutes, rather than the other way around.

I mean based on the below statement it’s not unreasonable to think that is almost exactly what you said.

It’s likely that Ayo and Frazier will start as the wings with Feliz running the point.

I am so, so confident that this will not happen. Even if Underwood himself thinks it's going to happen as of right now, it still won't happen.

Maybe I misinterpreted you in that you were only responding to them starting but even then it’s still an incredibly strong statement regarding the same topic we are all talking about. And we all know starting Versus playing together for any significant time really isn’t all that different.
 
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#395      
I do not believe Feliz will be a starter, nor do I think he will be among our top minutes-getters. In both cases barring injury or severely disappointing years from Trent and/or Ayo. That is my argument.

Is it safe to say, based on what you believe, that you wouldn't have even recruited Feliz if you were the coach?
 
#396      
Is it safe to say, based on what you believe, that you wouldn't have even recruited Feliz if you were the coach?

Tough call. Feliz was pretty much a straight swap for Lucas, and while I really like Lucas and probably believe him to be a better overall basketball player, Feliz looks like the better fit for our system and more natural in the role he's (likely, IMO) to be asked to play.

If it was inevitable that Lucas was leaving, Feliz was a good replacement who I definitely would have recruited and I'm glad we have. And it's definitely possible he's better than Lucas, we shall see.
 
#398      
Tough call. Feliz was pretty much a straight swap for Lucas, and while I really like Lucas and probably believe him to be a better overall basketball player, Feliz looks like the better fit for our system and more natural in the role he's (likely, IMO) to be asked to play.

If it was inevitable that Lucas was leaving, Feliz was a good replacement who I definitely would have recruited and I'm glad we have. And it's definitely possible he's better than Lucas, we shall see.

Ok, so even though Lucas started some, got "starter minutes" and you feel like Feliz is probably a better fit for our actual system. You still don't think Feliz will either A) start or B) get starter minutes. And if that's the case, why would you have recruited a guy you feel like won't help you out that much?


Makes perfect sense to me. :confused:
 
#399      
One thing I'll be curious to see is if Trent continues to get as many charge calls in his favor. There were quiet a few instances he seemed to play it up a bit and some that could've been no calls or blocking fouls. We'll see if the refs are more aware.

That being said, he still did a fantastic job to get into position.
 
#400      
Ok, so even though Lucas started some, got "starter minutes" and you feel like Feliz is probably a better fit for our actual system. You still don't think Feliz will either A) start or B) get starter minutes. And if that's the case, why would you have recruited a guy you feel like won't help you out that much?


Makes perfect sense to me. :confused:

Ayo is the missing piece of that analysis.

Lucas would have played much less if Mark Smith had been what we thought he was going to be and what we're all confident Ayo is going to be. Also true of Alstork to an extent.

And you recruit Feliz because a quality backup PG with age and experience who's a good fit to distribute and keep the offense flowing with the second unit is a very nice piece to have. It's a piece that extracts additional value from your other longer-term upside plays.

My best guess of the minutes rankings, assuming everyone qualifies and stays healthy:

1. Frazier
2. Ayo
3. Kipper
4. DaMonte
5. AJ
6. Kane
7. Feliz
8. Tevian
9. De la Rosa
10. Giorgi
11. Griffin
12. Higgs
 
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