Illini Basketball 2021-2022

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#351      
Payne is most definitely an X factor. You're absolutely right, he could have a big impact.
Agree on Payne. I loved Giorgi, but what we really needed out of our backup 5 was rebounding, rim protection and the ability to switch on screens. Payne seems to excel at all 3 of these but at the very least will be a huge upgrade from Giorgi on defense/rebounding.
Sneaky good pickup as he didn’t put up big numbers at UF, but should fill his role nicely.
 
#352      
Agree on Payne. I loved Giorgi, but what we really needed out of our backup 5 was rebounding, rim protection and the ability to switch on screens. Payne seems to excel at all 3 of these but at the very least will be a huge upgrade from Giorgi on defense/rebounding.
Sneaky good pickup as he didn’t put up big numbers at UF, but should fill his role nicely.
It would be huge to not have the inside slip defensively when Kofi needs a breather or gets into foul trouble.
Also - I think one thing worth noting in regards to BU wanting to play Giorgi at the 4 some last year, is that part of it may have been performance by Giorgi overall and not just how the two played together. Giorgi struggles a lot last year and didn’t really justify the minutes to play both together. If Payne’s play demands more minutes and leads to both him and Kofi on the floor, it can only mean good things for the Illini.
 
#353      
Agree on Payne. I loved Giorgi, but what we really needed out of our backup 5 was rebounding, rim protection and the ability to switch on screens. Payne seems to excel at all 3 of these but at the very least will be a huge upgrade from Giorgi on defense/rebounding.
Sneaky good pickup as he didn’t put up big numbers at UF, but should fill his role nicely.
This. I think there's a good chance his game will blossom (change of scenery, maturity, experience, better team, better coaches). And we have him for 3 seasons.
 
#356      
Winged Warrior
It's funny that some still have not learned the absolute path to PT under BU. It's defense. Play defense better than the next guy....it doesn't matter that you might throw in 10 ppg vs. 4ppg.

See: DMFW v. Alan Griffin/Tev Jones...etc.
 
#357      
Washington, DC
It's funny that some still have not learned the absolute path to PT under BU. It's defense. Play defense better than the next guy....it doesn't matter that you might throw in 10 ppg vs. 4ppg.

See: DMFW v. Alan Griffin/Tev Jones...etc.
I think comparing Griffin/Jones to anyone currently assumed to be in our rotation is kinda ridiculous. Those were dudes that were complete knuckleheads on bad teams that had no clue what they were doing. You look at someone like Plummer and he played 28 minutes a night on a high major team. He might not be a lockdown defender, but he also doesn't need to be. He's shown that he can contribute to a defensive system and be where he needs to be on the floor. An apt example for someone like him would be Curbelo last season. He might not be a plus defender, but he was in the right spot, and his offense coming off the bench more than makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

Just gonna drop this here so people remember how good Plummer is. Note the defense.

 
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#358      
Winged Warrior
I think comparing Griffin/Jones to anyone currently assumed to be in our rotation is kinda ridiculous. Those were dudes that were complete knuckleheads on bad teams that had no clue what they were doing. You look at someone like Plummer and he played 28 minutes a night on a high major team. He might not be a lockdown defender, but he also doesn't need to be. He's shown that he can contribute to a defensive system and be where he needs to be on the floor. An apt example for someone like him would be Curbelo last season. He might not be a plus defender, but he was in the right spot, and his offense coming off the bench more than makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

Just gonna drop this here so people remember how good Plummer is. Note the defense.


That's not really what I was doing. I was comparing their defensive contributions to DMFW to make my point that defense is the way to PT under BU.
That is not me saying that anyone on our current roster is the equal/not equal to Griffin or Jones either offensively or defensively.
 
#359      
Agree on Payne. I loved Giorgi, but what we really needed out of our backup 5 was rebounding, rim protection and the ability to switch on screens. Payne seems to excel at all 3 of these but at the very least will be a huge upgrade from Giorgi on defense/rebounding.
Sneaky good pickup as he didn’t put up big numbers at UF, but should fill his role nicely.
Not having seen Payne play I'm wondering if he is a more athletic Nnanna Egwu...
 
#360      
Agree on Payne. I loved Giorgi, but what we really needed out of our backup 5 was rebounding, rim protection and the ability to switch on screens. Payne seems to excel at all 3 of these but at the very least will be a huge upgrade from Giorgi on defense/rebounding.
Sneaky good pickup as he didn’t put up big numbers at UF, but should fill his role nicely.
Payne is definitely an opportunity to contrast and prove with clear comparison our development process/player successes against another successful program. I'm am very bullish on Payne...no pun intended. Alexander and Fletch will be major reasons he improves/excels.
 
#361      
Washington, DC
That's not really what I was doing. I was comparing their defensive contributions to DMFW to make my point that defense is the way to PT under BU.
That is not me saying that anyone on our current roster is the equal/not equal to Griffin or Jones either offensively or defensively.
Williams got playing time over Griffin and Jones because he knew the system and the other two didn't. It wasn't a preference of defense over offense. It was a preference of a player understanding what to do over two players that fundamentally didn't. Again, you look at last year. The first person off the bench, once Williams was benched, was Curbelo, not Williams. It wasn't because Curbelo was a better defender. We know he's definitely not better at defense than Williams. It was because Curbelo knew the system well enough to not be a liability on the defensive end AND was a huge spark offensively.

The idea that BU will simply defer to defense over offense is demonstrably false. BU wants players that understand the system first and foremost. After that, if a guy is gonna bring some much-needed offensive energy off the bench, like Curbelo did last year, he's gonna get a whole heck of a lot of tick.
 
#362      
Payne is definitely an opportunity to contrast and prove with clear comparison our development process/player successes against another successful program. I'm am very bullish on Payne...no pun intended. Alexander and Fletch will be major reasons he improves/excels.
I agree...also playing against Kofi daily will help both....remember Payne was ranked 1 position above Kofi...so I bet they will be challenging/helping each other improve...excited we might have a 2 headed monster down low.
 
#363      
Williams got playing time over Griffin and Jones because he knew the system and the other two didn't. It wasn't a preference of defense over offense. It was a preference of a player understanding what to do over two players that fundamentally didn't. Again, you look at last year. The first person off the bench, once Williams was benched, was Curbelo, not Williams. It wasn't because Curbelo was a better defender. We know he's definitely not better at defense than Williams. It was because Curbelo knew the system well enough to not be a liability on the defensive end AND was a huge spark offensively.

The idea that BU will simply defer to defense over offense is demonstrably false. BU wants players that understand the system first and foremost. After that, if a guy is gonna bring some much-needed offensive energy off the bench, like Curbelo did last year, he's gonna get a whole heck of a lot of tick.
Players play. But you better be competing on defense with BU. The defense was also the reason he ended up on Liddell last year.
 
#364      
Williams got playing time over Griffin and Jones because he knew the system and the other two didn't. It wasn't a preference of defense over offense. It was a preference of a player understanding what to do over two players that fundamentally didn't. Again, you look at last year. The first person off the bench, once Williams was benched, was Curbelo, not Williams. It wasn't because Curbelo was a better defender. We know he's definitely not better at defense than Williams. It was because Curbelo knew the system well enough to not be a liability on the defensive end AND was a huge spark offensively.

The idea that BU will simply defer to defense over offense is demonstrably false. BU wants players that understand the system first and foremost. After that, if a guy is gonna bring some much-needed offensive energy off the bench, like Curbelo did last year, he's gonna get a whole heck of a lot of tick.
Agree on your basic point...BU looking for "whole package" with players, but most importantly, I think BU is looking for players who mesh and "make everyone better"...that is what makes AC special.

On AC last year coming in, he was generally coming as lead playmaking guard (Point) , in place of TF or AD, who were shifting roles.
BU liked having that "chess move" with AC to change pace and dynamics, which is not what he would bring DW in for. Often times you would see a couple of guys come in off the bench.

All that said, I think AC has unique PG abilities that got him 6th man of year... and got him in games as part of BUs in-game strategy....but ACs biggest attribute is he is a guy that makes everyone around him better.
 
#365      
Winged Warrior
Williams got playing time over Griffin and Jones because he knew the system and the other two didn't. It wasn't a preference of defense over offense. It was a preference of a player understanding what to do over two players that fundamentally didn't. Again, you look at last year. The first person off the bench, once Williams was benched, was Curbelo, not Williams. It wasn't because Curbelo was a better defender. We know he's definitely not better at defense than Williams. It was because Curbelo knew the system well enough to not be a liability on the defensive end AND was a huge spark offensively.

The idea that BU will simply defer to defense over offense is demonstrably false. BU wants players that understand the system first and foremost. After that, if a guy is gonna bring some much-needed offensive energy off the bench, like Curbelo did last year, he's gonna get a whole heck of a lot of tick.

Ok. He's literally referred to it in interviews....but I'll let this die here because I also agree with everything you are saying. "Knowing the system" is just changing the words a little to make your point...which again...I agree with....because BU has talked extensively in interviews about knowing defense and how important it is to see the floor.
The Curbelo sub in doesn't directly apply here because they are playing two different positions and have completely different defensive matchups....so it's more about subbing in for matchups at that point.
 
#366      
Washington, DC
Ok. He's literally referred to it in interviews....but I'll let this die here because I also agree with everything you are saying. "Knowing the system" is just changing the words a little to make your point...which again...I agree with....because BU has talked extensively in interviews about knowing defense and how important it is to see the floor.
The Curbelo sub in doesn't directly apply here because they are playing two different positions and have completely different defensive matchups....so it's more about subbing in for matchups at that point.
I guess my question is, referring to your first comment, who is the theoretical 10ppg player, and who is the 4ppg that's getting more playing time? I look at the roster and besides the freshmen, who we all agree are question marks when it comes to defending D1 players, and I can't figure out what that's referencing. Is it Hutch? Cause everyone else on the roster has proven they're up to the task defensively. And even Hutch has been in the system for two years so I think it's pretty unlikely he doesn't have it down pat.
 
#367      
Winged Warrior
I guess my question is, referring to your first comment, who is the theoretical 10ppg player, and who is the 4ppg that's getting more playing time? I look at the roster and besides the freshmen, who we all agree are question marks when it comes to defending D1 players, and I can't figure out what that's referencing. Is it Hutch? Cause everyone else on the roster has proven they're up to the task defensively. And even Hutch has been in the system for two years so I think it's pretty unlikely he doesn't have it down pat.

Yeah I just kinda pulled those out of my butt honestly...and it might not be the best example. It's just more of a reference to all the angst on this board when DMFW was getting PT avg. 4ppg while better offensive options never saw the floor. BU always referred to his defense and intangibles when it came up in interviews, which also lines up with your "knowing the system" as well.

The competition for PT will be fierce this year and IMHO the best defenders will see the floor all other things considered. If they all turn out to be plus defenders then it makes BU's job even harder!
 
#368      
Washington, DC
Yeah I just kinda pulled those out of my butt honestly...and it might not be the best example. It's just more of a reference to all the angst on this board when DMFW was getting PT avg. 4ppg while better offensive options never saw the floor. BU always referred to his defense and intangibles when it came up in interviews, which also lines up with your "knowing the system" as well.

The competition for PT will be fierce this year and IMHO the best defenders will see the floor all other things considered. If they all turn out to be plus defenders then it makes BU's job even harder!
Gotcha and fair points. Yeah, one of the things I'm most excited about is that we seem to be past the dark days where we insert guys into the lineup that look totally lost. There are a ton of mouths to feed and everyone will have to bring it to see the court.
 
#369      
My only concern on this point, is that truth be told, I see a lot of depth EVERY year, and yet it becomes a 7-9 player rotation for important minutes. I would love for the above mentioned 9+ BBV and the freshman to all get real minutes, but I know that won't happen (assuming health, please let there be health!).
yep, you're probably right, but I'm hoping for 10, freshman will play in the cupcake games but that could easily be it, not counting mop up minutes, which I hope are plentiful in the tougher parts of our schedule.
 
#370      
I think comparing Griffin/Jones to anyone currently assumed to be in our rotation is kinda ridiculous. Those were dudes that were complete knuckleheads on bad teams that had no clue what they were doing. You look at someone like Plummer and he played 28 minutes a night on a high major team. He might not be a lockdown defender, but he also doesn't need to be. He's shown that he can contribute to a defensive system and be where he needs to be on the floor. An apt example for someone like him would be Curbelo last season. He might not be a plus defender, but he was in the right spot, and his offense coming off the bench more than makes up for his defensive deficiencies.
Alan Griffin was a key contributor on a team that was tournament bound was playing red hot before COVID blew up the end of the season. Every team Plummer has ever been on is worse than that "bad team". Also, your last sentence would literally have been used to describe Griffin as an Illini. Except he was a better shooter than Plummer and a way better rebounder.
 
#371      
Washington, DC
Alan Griffin was a key contributor on a team that was tournament bound was playing red hot before COVID blew up the end of the season. Every team Plummer has ever been on is worse than that "bad team". Also, your last sentence would literally have been used to describe Griffin as an Illini. Except he was a better shooter than Plummer and a way better rebounder.
"Boeheim, in his post-game Zoom call with media members after the deflating loss to Duke on the road, said that Griffin, for two contests in a row, is doing these “one-dribble pull-ups” for which the head coach doesn’t seem fond."

"While some of the issues in the zone are due to the guards, “Our forwards are not playing defense,” Boeheim said, adding that the forwards are not covering and not coming up."

"Regarding the woeful defensive performance put forth by the forwards, and really the team as a whole in recent games, Boeheim said, “There’s no excuse.”'


In Griffin's 3 NCAA games this season he had 15 minutes and 0 points, 11 minutes and 3 points, and 13 minutes and 2 points. There's a reason Griffin got benched. It's the same reason things didn't work out here. You can't trust him to run the system.
 
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#372      
"Boeheim, in his post-game Zoom call with media members after the deflating loss to Duke on the road, said that Griffin, for two contests in a row, is doing these “one-dribble pull-ups” for which the head coach doesn’t seem fond."

"While some of the issues in the zone are due to the guards, “Our forwards are not playing defense,” Boeheim said, adding that the forwards are not covering and not coming up."

"Regarding the woeful defensive performance put forth by the forwards, and really the team as a whole in recent games, Boeheim said, “There’s no excuse.”'


In Griffin's 3 NCAA games this season he had 15 minutes and 0 points, 11 minutes and 3 points, and 13 minutes and 2 points. There's a reason Griffin got benched. It's the same reason things didn't work out here. You can't trust him to run the system.

It's a good thing the point guard thing worked out.
 
#373      
"Boeheim, in his post-game Zoom call with media members after the deflating loss to Duke on the road, said that Griffin, for two contests in a row, is doing these “one-dribble pull-ups” for which the head coach doesn’t seem fond."

"While some of the issues in the zone are due to the guards, “Our forwards are not playing defense,” Boeheim said, adding that the forwards are not covering and not coming up."

"Regarding the woeful defensive performance put forth by the forwards, and really the team as a whole in recent games, Boeheim said, “There’s no excuse.”'


In Griffin's 3 NCAA games this season he had 15 minutes and 0 points, 11 minutes and 3 points, and 13 minutes and 2 points. There's a reason Griffin got benched. It's the same reason things didn't work out here. You can't trust him to run the system.
In the final 6 games of his sophomore season, when the team got hot and won 5 of 6, Griffin averaged 18 minutes, 10 points, and 4 rebounds. Pretty close to his season long averages actually. Apparently Underwood trusted him to run the system because he was on the floor scoring for a tournament team.

Anyway, I'm excited about Plummer, I just worry about his size keeping his minutes limited due to Trent and Belo being ahead of him. Would be tough to run those three together.
 
#374      
I think comparing Griffin/Jones to anyone currently assumed to be in our rotation is kinda ridiculous. Those were dudes that were complete knuckleheads on bad teams that had no clue what they were doing. You look at someone like Plummer and he played 28 minutes a night on a high major team. He might not be a lockdown defender, but he also doesn't need to be. He's shown that he can contribute to a defensive system and be where he needs to be on the floor. An apt example for someone like him would be Curbelo last season. He might not be a plus defender, but he was in the right spot, and his offense coming off the bench more than makes up for his defensive deficiencies.

Just gonna drop this here so people remember how good Plummer is. Note the defense.

I’m going to guess the University of Utah did not pick the music for this video.
 
#375      
In the final 6 games of his sophomore season, when the team got hot and won 5 of 6, Griffin averaged 18 minutes, 10 points, and 4 rebounds. Pretty close to his season long averages actually. Apparently Underwood trusted him to run the system because he was on the floor scoring for a tournament team.

Anyway, I'm excited about Plummer, I just worry about his size keeping his minutes limited due to Trent and Belo being ahead of him. Would be tough to run those three together.

I doubt the three play together very often. Trent and Andres will both get 30+ min/game. When either goes out Plummer will go in. So I’m guessing 20 min/game is his ceiling (unless God forbid, Trent or Andrés gets hurt).
 
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