Illini Basketball 2023-2024

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#651      

grue2

G
grue2
PepeSilvia said:
Mostly good but come on. There is no way you can take both Dee and Ayo over Anderson. Deron and Anderson are likely the two best players in program history. Gill is probably 3.

Anderson also gives you good size on the wing and was very good on the boards. Plus he was no worse of a shooter than Ayo.
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Anderson was a close call both as a starter and as 6th man. Which 3 of these 4 do you take building around Kofi? I'd choose differently building around Leonard. (Anderson was a better shooter than Ayo.)

FG%3P%FT%RPGAPGSPGBPGPPG
.488.39.786.35.31.1.220.1
.500.35.784.93.32.2.620.0
.538.35.677.92.01.6.918.0
.611.43.772.74.51.8.113.3
 
#652      

PepeSilvia

P
PepeSilvia
grue2 said:
Anderson was a close call both as a starter and as 6th man. Which 3 of these 4 do you take building around Kofi? I'd choose differently building around Leonard. (Anderson was a better shooter than Ayo.)

FG%3P%FT%RPGAPGSPGBPGPPG
.488.39.786.35.31.1.220.1
.500.35.784.93.32.2.620.0
.538.35.677.92.01.6.918.0
.611.43.772.74.51.8.113.3
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I don't know honestly a lot of it would depend on their size and defensive ability. Option 3 looks like the least skilled offensively but also is the best rebounder and likely defensively.

Also, I feel like Luther Head actually would be a decent option if you're looking to build a team around Kofi even moreso than Dee if you're bringing Deron as your point.
 
#653      

grue2

G
grue2
PepeSilvia said:
I don't know honestly a lot of it would depend on their size and defensive ability. Option 3 looks like the least skilled offensively but also is the best rebounder and likely defensively.

Also, I feel like Luther Head actually would be a decent option if you're looking to build a team around Kofi even moreso than Dee if you're bringing Deron as your point.
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What makes you pull for Anderson over Dee given Kofi? All of Dee 6', Ayo 6'4, Gill 6'5, and Anderson 6'6 were solid defenders.

Gill/Anderson: Gill was equal offensively to Anderson, and a better defender and passer. Anderson was the better rebounder.
Dee/Anderson: Dee was a much better 3p shooter and passer and a defensive menace. He gave up a lot of height. He wasn't a rebounder.
Ayo/Anderson: Ayo was a better shooter, much better passer, and solid rebounder (though not to Anderson's level)
Given Kofi, which do you choose?

Luther's had shooting. His passing stats were much worse than I expected. I don't remember him being a significantly better defender. I wanted everyone capable of feeding Kofi so that teams couldn't cheat on defense on one side. (Cook could shoot the 3 and pass.)

If it wasn't clear already, Anderson was #7 on my list. They would have made the team if I was building around Leonard vs. Kofi.
 
#654      

nichi

N
nichi
PepeSilvia said:
Deron and Anderson are likely the two best players in program history. Gill is probably 3.
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Derek Harper gives Gill a run for his money.

Nick Anderson was a top 10 McD AA. Then after 2 years of college ball, he was the #11 pick in the NBA draft. Nick was the most graceful, talented, polished, and skilled of the Flying Illini. He had the floor game and the above the rim hang time. Battle launched, Gill flew, Nick floated.

From way back in the day:

Slush fund casualty Rich Jones could have been the best. After transferring to Memphis State his career was sidetracked by off court issues and a knee injury. He was still a good player in the old ABA.

SG Don Freeman was a star in the pre-merger ABA.

C Skip Thoren did well in the ABA, before a knee injury ended his career.

PG Tal Brody said no the NBA to start basketball in Israel.

CG Jim Dawson left the Pacers to pursue more lucrative business opportunities.

SG/SF Dave Downy told Marty Blake not to waste a draft pick.
 
#656      

grue2

G
grue2
nichi said:
Derek Harper gives Gill a run for his money.

Nick Anderson was a top 10 McD AA. Then after 2 years of college ball, he was the #11 pick in the NBA draft. Nick was the most graceful, talented, polished, and skilled of the Flying Illini. He had the floor game and the above the rim hang time. Battle launched, Gill flew, Nick floated.

From way back in the day:
...
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Harper did not develop a 3pt shot until ~5 years into his NBA career. If he had that shot as an Illini, he would have been a strong contender to make the top Illini team.

I did forget to consider Doug Altenberger. It seemed like he was almost 50% on 3s his senior year. I don't remember much about his defense or passing.
 
#657      

nichi

N
nichi
grue2 said:
Harper did not develop a 3pt shot until ~5 years into his NBA career. If he had that shot as an Illini, he would have been a strong contender to make the top Illini team.

I did forget to consider Doug Altenberger. It seemed like he was almost 50% on 3s his senior year. I don't remember much about his defense or passing.
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The three point shot did not exist in college ball in general until 1986. The Big Ten added it as a trial Harper's junior season. He made a respectable 13-27 that season. I don't know the distance. I think that was only in league play. Not sure.
 
#658      

nichi

N
nichi
grue2 said:
Harper did not develop a 3pt shot until ~5 years into his NBA career. If he had that shot as an Illini, he would have been a strong contender to make the top Illini team.

I did forget to consider Doug Altenberger. It seemed like he was almost 50% on 3s his senior year. I don't remember much about his defense or passing.
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Stats mean less without context. Notice Doug Altenberger only shot threes as a freshman and a 5th year senior? The Big Ten tried it out in 82/83. The NCAA added it in 86/87.

Doug was always a pretty good shooter. He was a very tough defender and rebounder until he blew out a knee as a senior. He had been very good at fighting through screens and blocking out on the boards.

After the season ending injury, he returned for an extra year and became more of a spot up shooter; which coincided with the new 3 point shot.
 
#659      

PepeSilvia

P
PepeSilvia
grue2 said:
What makes you pull for Anderson over Dee given Kofi? All of Dee 6', Ayo 6'4, Gill 6'5, and Anderson 6'6 were solid defenders.

Gill/Anderson: Gill was equal offensively to Anderson, and a better defender and passer. Anderson was the better rebounder.
Dee/Anderson: Dee was a much better 3p shooter and passer and a defensive menace. He gave up a lot of height. He wasn't a rebounder.
Ayo/Anderson: Ayo was a better shooter, much better passer, and solid rebounder (though not to Anderson's level)
Given Kofi, which do you choose?

Luther's had shooting. His passing stats were much worse than I expected. I don't remember him being a significantly better defender. I wanted everyone capable of feeding Kofi so that teams couldn't cheat on defense on one side. (Cook could shoot the 3 and pass.)

If it wasn't clear already, Anderson was #7 on my list. They would have made the team if I was building around Leonard vs. Kofi.
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I'd probably pull in Anderson over Ayo and drop Dee to the 6th man. Anderson, Cook, and Kofi would dominate on the glass and I think Anderson was vastly better in transition than Ayo. I like the thought of Deron being the outlet with Anderson and Gill running on the fast break.

I'm not saying Dee was a bad defender but length and size goes along way defensively and makes the team more versatile. The other reason I like Anderson is that I think he's big enough to play small ball 4 so you could run out Dee, Deron, Gill, Anderson, Kofi or play 5 out with Cook when Kofi sits.
 
#660      

grue2

G
grue2
nichi said:
The three point shot did not exist in college ball in general until 1986. The Big Ten added it as a trial Harper's junior season. He made a respectable 13-27 that season. I don't know the distance. I think that was only in league play. Not sure.
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If Harper hit 48% (13/27) from 3, then I have to think seriously about his place on the team. The risk is that with the small 3pt shooting sample size, I'm not sure if Harper was only shooting wide open 3s though. He was terrible at 3pts his first 3-4 years as a pro - 23'9" line.

Adding another line to the comparison chart -- take 3 of the 5. I have Deron, Kofi and Cook to go with them. I remember Harper being exceptional on defense and with unusually long arms that were always in passing lanes.
grue2 said:
FG%3P%FT%RPGAPGSPGBPGPPG
.488.39.786.35.31.1.220.1
.611.43.772.74.51.8.113.3
.537.48.703.53.72.3.615.4
.500.35.784.93.32.2.620.0
.538.35.677.92.01.6.918.0
Click to expand...

I think I've talked myself into Ayo/Deron/Gill/Cook/Cockburn and Harper 6th man. No Dee or Anderson. Such blasphemy. I'd take Dee over Gill other than I don't think I can play Dee/Deron/Ayo all at the same time.

Mens NCAA 3pt distances:
1986: 19' 9" (So all of Harper, Dee, Altenberger, Bradford, etc.)
2008: 20' 9"
2019: 22' 1.75"

Thanks for the reminder on Altenberger. I was a bit busy that year and missed many of the games.

Ayo (PG/SG), Dee(PG), Harper(PG/SG), Gill(SG/SF), Anderson (SG/SF)
 
#664      

rtbritt

rtbritt
rtbritt
I didn’t start watching until 1999.

With that said, I don’t know the history well…

1 Frank
2 Deron
3 Ayo
4 Cook
5 Kofi

Backup guard: Dee
Backup big: Augie
 
#666      

Calvin

C
Calvin
There's plenty of room for debate, but an all-Illini list without Nick Anderson says to me you didn't watch him play.

Deron and HRF were also other-worldly IMHO. Bigs are a little harder to judge than guards because of how the game has changed both offensively and defensively.
 
#667      

Calvin

C
Calvin
Oh, and pet peeve: videos of guys shooting jump shots but not elevating --so freaking obvious they're in practice, and not playing like they need to for a game. I remember watching Deron shoot in practice. Guy ELEVATED for his shot just like he would for a contested three in a game. When I saw that, I knew he'd develop into something special --guy practiced with purpose --that whole group of guards (Dee, Luther, Deron) really pushed each other.
 
#670      

nichi

N
nichi
Calvin said:
There's plenty of room for debate, but an all-Illini list without Nick Anderson says to me you didn't watch him play.

Deron and HRF were also other-worldly IMHO. Bigs are a little harder to judge than guards because of how the game has changed both offensively and defensively.
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The original Mark Smith from Peoria Richwoods is another one that had to be seen to appreciate. He was initially better than Eddie Johnson. Sadly, Smith's game stagnated due to excessive partying.
 
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#673      

ironhand

I
ironhand
PepeSilvia said:
I'd probably pull in Anderson over Ayo and drop Dee to the 6th man. Anderson, Cook, and Kofi would dominate on the glass and I think Anderson was vastly better in transition than Ayo. I like the thought of Deron being the outlet with Anderson and Gill running on the fast break.

I'm not saying Dee was a bad defender but length and size goes along way defensively and makes the team more versatile. The other reason I like Anderson is that I think he's big enough to play small ball 4 so you could run out Dee, Deron, Gill, Anderson, Kofi or play 5 out with Cook when Kofi sits.
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Eddie Johnson
 
#675      

BretMyBeachHouse

B
BretMyBeachHouse
OnlyOrange said:
Wasn't Cook B1G player of the year? That alone puts him in high company.

This is a fun debate, regardless. Could go so many different ways.
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He was. But this was a ridiculously low talent year for the B1G. Cook at 24 was the highest draft choice. Here's your other all B1G team. Would any of these other guys made even the second team last year?

Kirk Penney
Willie Deane
Rick Rickert
LaVell Blanchard
Jeff Newton
Brian Cook
 
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