Illini Basketball

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#651      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
Ferd said:
Play to win!
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We did.
Ferd said:
If somebody is going to make you better get him on the floor!
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That's why we played the upperclassmen.
Ferd said:
Win the season, not just today's game!
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Took your advice. BU won a conference title, instead of worrying about winning some distant Round-of-32 game. He coached to have consistent, sustained success over the entire course of the season rather than randomly trying to prepare to win a particular game.

When did winning B1G titles suddenly become meaningless? That is a huge accomplishment. Something all of our players and coaches can be proud of. They merit rings and a banner. This obsession over tournament results (at the potential expense and disregard of everything else) is absurd and embarrassing.

Where's the gratitude?
 
#652      

Illini in Italy

Illini in Italy
Illini in Italy
Ferd said:
Our upperclassmen couldn't get us past the second game of the tourney. We needed to recruit better freshmen, or the ones we have should have been better prepared to provide what we needed against Houston. You see teams losing regularly early in the season, then hitting their stride when it really counts. Izzo is an example. Carolina is an 8 seed because they weren't afraid to lose games early while they were growing. We played the most "reliable" team in every tough game, instead of preparing to win all season.

I'm not happy to have won the regular season B1G title, then look like crap in the BTT and NCAA because we had a senior injured, one exhausted and diseased, one still afraid to shoot after 5 years, with nobody experienced to take their places. When you are losing in the NCAAs is not the time to realize that having 2 guys sagging off non-shooters is going to smother Kofi, so you had better bring in the frosh even though they have barely played. Darn, wish I had played them more! 😴

If we had played the 3 freshmen more we might not have won the regular season, or we might have won it going away. We probably would have a slightly different record, been in a different bracket, and had 3 guys getting technicals for breakaway dunks. Had we played that way, coach would have had to lighten up a little, and Hawkins wouldn't have been in the doghouse until an injury forced him onto the court. Darn, I should have let Coleman play sooner! 🤔 He may have won us a game or 2.

Underwood was playing "not to lose" like Weber. Play to win! If somebody is going to make you better get him on the floor! Win the season, not just today's game! Don't be a female cat! Full speed ahead, Damn the torpedoes! This is America, and we're Illinois! ILFL
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#653      

Navy_illini

N
Navy_illini
JFGsCoffeeMug said:
We did.

That's why we played the upperclassmen.

Took your advice. BU won a conference title, instead of worrying about winning some distant Round-of-32 game. He coached to have consistent, sustained success over the entire course of the season rather than randomly trying to prepare to win a particular game.

When did winning B1G titles suddenly become meaningless? That is a huge accomplishment. Something all of our players and coaches can be proud of. They merit rings and a banner. This obsession over tournament results (at the potential expense and disregard of everything else) is absurd and embarrassing.

Where's the gratitude?
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You are absolutely correct. Success in the tournament is about matchups and luck. The rest of the season matters

I would say we as Illinois fans should expect a trip to the tournament as the bare minimum for a season and right around 20 wins. That is a good season period

If you win either the Big Ten regular season or BTT on top of that is a really good season. Yes the last 2 years have been really good.

An elite 8 run or better is when you can move a good season to a really good season without a conference championship but the team gets no banner. So Purdue this year had a good season

Final four run is an elite season (doesn’t matter about what else you did) and when we win the championship it will be an amazing season

To me sweet sixteen is the same as round of 32
 
#654      

jrichisamazing

J
jrichisamazing
illinitiger said:
Rogers looks to be exactly what we needed this year. A long play maker with midrange.....he looks like future star.

BU needs to figure out a way to accelerate Freshmen system integration this summer and fall...we need to get most out of their talents early, for their benefit and the Team's
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I would love if the freshmen came in and balled straight away. But there is a realistic scenario where Kofi, Hawkins, RJ, Goode, Podz, Dainja, and a couple veteran transfers could win us another championship...and the 2022 freshmen are fighting for the scraps just like RJ, Podz, and Goode did this season. That wouldn't be a bad thing. That's a sign of a healthy program.
 
#656      

JFGsCoffeeMug

JFGsCoffeeMug
BU:1 Trash cans:0
Chicago
JFGsCoffeeMug
The inanity of suggesting that our coaches should have tried to win a lot of games, but in a very specific way, that they apparently failed to achieve simply because we lost a particular game, in a season where we literally won a title for winning a lot of games, is mind-numbing.

Don't diminish the title just because you wanted a few more tournament wins. Losing more games before the tournament would have offered no guarantee of similar or greater tournament success this year. That particular piece of tortured logic is mostly wishful and disrespectful nonsense.
 
#657      

MannyBianco

MannyBianco
MannyBianco
Navy_illini said:
You are absolutely correct. Success in the tournament is about matchups and luck. The rest of the season matters

I would say we as Illinois fans should expect a trip to the tournament as the bare minimum for a season and right around 20 wins. That is a good season period

If you win either the Big Ten regular season or BTT on top of that is a really good season. Yes the last 2 years have been really good.

An elite 8 run or better is when you can move a good season to a really good season without a conference championship but the team gets no banner. So Purdue this year had a good season

Final four run is an elite season (doesn’t matter about what else you did) and when we win the championship it will be an amazing season

To me sweet sixteen is the same as round of 32
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Underwood has been an excellent HC everywhere he’s been, but there is one glaring hole in his résumé. He’s never seen the second week of the NCAAT. Hard to pin that on “matchups and luck.” There are coaches who seem to get deeper with comparable or lesser talent, and they’re dealing with the same matchups and luck.

I’m not knocking BU here. He pulled our program out of the abyss. Still, it’s hard to ignore that he’s had little success beyond the conference level. Maybe that changes next year?
 
#658      

Ga65

G
Ga65
MannyBianco said:
Underwood has been an excellent HC everywhere he’s been, but there is one glaring hole in his résumé. He’s never seen the second week of the NCAAT. Hard to pin that on “matchups and luck.” There are coaches who seem to get deeper with comparable or lesser talent, and they’re dealing with the same matchups and luck.

I’m not knocking BU here. He pulled our program out of the abyss. Still, it’s hard to ignore that he’s had little success beyond the conference level. Maybe that changes next year?
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Question is did he under perform in the tournament or over perform in conference play? Or does he have trouble performing with one starter out, one with one eye, and a critical sixth man still recovering from a concussion. Guess he just doesn’t reference the forum before games. Probably listens to those assistants who obviously don’t know anything.
 
#659      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
MannyBianco said:
Underwood has been an excellent HC everywhere he’s been, but there is one glaring hole in his résumé. He’s never seen the second week of the NCAAT. Hard to pin that on “matchups and luck.” There are coaches who seem to get deeper with comparable or lesser talent, and they’re dealing with the same matchups and luck.

I’m not knocking BU here. He pulled our program out of the abyss. Still, it’s hard to ignore that he’s had little success beyond the conference level. Maybe that changes next year?
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He's had 6 tournament appearances. In his 3 at SFA his team was a 12-seed twice and a 14-seed once (btw that 14-seed beat the AP #8 team in the country in the 1st rd). His one Ok St team was a 10-seed. Not getting the 1-seed Illini team past the round of 32 was a legitimate disappointment, but I don't think you can fault him for failing to get his four 10-seed or worse teams to the second weekend.
 
#660      

MannyBianco

MannyBianco
MannyBianco
Ga65 said:
Question is did he under perform in the tournament or over perform in conference play? Or does he have trouble performing with one starter out, one with one eye, and a critical sixth man still recovering from a concussion. Guess he just doesn’t reference the forum before games. Probably listens to those assistants who obviously don’t know anything.
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You’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about just this season. Underwood’s been a HC for nine seasons, with considerable success at all stops. Obviously a very good coach. Six NCAAT appearances, but never beyond the first weekend. Tournament play is not his strength.

Don’t misinterpret this as coach bashing. I remember very clearly where our program was when he got here.
 
#661      

armo859

A
armo859
JFGsCoffeeMug said:
We did.

That's why we played the upperclassmen.

Took your advice. BU won a conference title, instead of worrying about winning some distant Round-of-32 game. He coached to have consistent, sustained success over the entire course of the season rather than randomly trying to prepare to win a particular game.

When did winning B1G titles suddenly become meaningless? That is a huge accomplishment. Something all of our players and coaches can be proud of. They merit rings and a banner. This obsession over tournament results (at the potential expense and disregard of everything else) is absurd and embarrassing.

Where's the gratitude?
Click to expand...
Seems like one thing missing from this thread is the annual rite of every B1G team failing in the tournament and listening to endless debates regarding why the conference teams over the past decade-ish(?) never close the deal. 9 teams in this year, 2 made it to Sweet 16, none to Elite 8. IMO the problem has been multifold. B1G has a lot of balance, many good teams but no elite teams. Makes for an extremely entertaining regular season and BTT, but has led to a raft of frustration come late March. Then we can debate whether the "no blood, no foul" style of play in the B1G limits success in the big dance, when we have to adapt to different referees. Then if the opponent packs the paint, triple teams Kofi (for example), it is hard to rely on 3 point shooting to spread the floor We saw again last night that even an elite blue blood like Duke can "die by the sword" if the 3 ball isn't falling. Shooting from deep is especially problematic in the huge, 70,000 seat football stadiums used for the Final 4. Drive the ball, don't miss layups (all night long!), make your free throws, don't give up OR's and 2nd chance points. I know it's easy to say sitting on the couch, screaming at the TV. :-(
 
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#662      

the juiceman cometh

T
the juiceman cometh
MannyBianco said:
You’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about just this season. Underwood’s been a HC for nine seasons, with considerable success at all stops. Obviously a very good coach. Six NCAAT appearances, but never beyond the first weekend. Tournament play is not his strength.

Don’t misinterpret this as coach bashing. I remember very clearly where our program was when he got here.
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Pretty strong conclusion to draw based on this:

SFA year 1 - 12-seed, wins 1st round loses in 2nd.

SFA year 2 - 12- seed, loses 1st round

SFA year 3 - 14-seed, wins 1st round loses in 2nd (by 1pt FWIW)

Ok. St. - 10-seed loses 1st rd (FWIW team was 12-20 the previous season)

Based on seeding, none of those teams were favorites to make it out of the 1st round, much less make it to the Sweet 16. His last year at SFA, that 14-seed team beat the #8 team in the country in the 1st round. While it's true BU has never gotten to the 2nd weekend you leave out a massive amount of context with that statement.
 
#663      

MDchicago

MDchicago
Lake Norman NC
MDchicago
MannyBianco said:
Underwood has been an excellent HC everywhere he’s been, but there is one glaring hole in his résumé. He’s never seen the second week of the NCAAT. Hard to pin that on “matchups and luck.” There are coaches who seem to get deeper with comparable or lesser talent, and they’re dealing with the same matchups and luck.

I’m not knocking BU here. He pulled our program out of the abyss. Still, it’s hard to ignore that he’s had little success beyond the conference level. Maybe that changes next year?
Click to expand...

Viewed through a different prism, he has only lost one game in the NCAA tournament that he was expected to win based on KenPom ratings (and that was to a fellow Top 10 ranked team), while achieving significant wins over teams ranked 47 and 39 spots higher in other years.

Based on pre-tournament KP rankings:

2014. Overachieved
Coaching #70 ranked team, beats #23 ranked team in first round and lose to #13 in the second round.

2015. As Expected
Coaching #44 team, lose to #8 in the first round.

2016. Overachieved
Coaching #45 team, beat #6 in the first round and lose to #37 in the second round.

2017. As Expected
Coaching #24 team, lose to #21 in the first round (92-91)

2020. Covid
Coaching top 30 team coming into its own, tournament is cancelled.

2021. Underachieved
Coaching #3 team, beat #146 in the first round and lose to #9 in the second round.

2022. As Expected
Coaching #17 team, beat #69 in the first round and lose to #5 in the second round.

I think there is too small of a sample size to draw broad conclusions (especially at a high major platform where deep runs are more realistic), but I'd be ok with any coach that meets or beats KenPom expectations 5 of 6 appearances and overachieves twice as often as he underachieves.

The 2021 second round loss to a wildly underseeded #9 was disappointing, but in the end was a 70-30ish probability game that we didn't win in a sudden death tournament format to a KenPom top 10 opponent. I don't like it, but can live with that knowing if we keep landing high seed appearances our time will come.
 
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#666      

Illini in Italy

Illini in Italy
Illini in Italy
MannyBianco said:
You’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about just this season. Underwood’s been a HC for nine seasons, with considerable success at all stops. Obviously a very good coach. Six NCAAT appearances, but never beyond the first weekend. Tournament play is not his strength.

Don’t misinterpret this as coach bashing. I remember very clearly where our program was when he got here.
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Don’t let facts slow you down brother!
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#667      

lstewart53x3

lstewart53x3
Scottsdale, Arizona
lstewart53x3
MDchicago said:
Viewed through a different prism, he has only lost one game in the NCAA tournament that he was expected to win based on KenPom ratings (and that was to a fellow Top 10 ranked team), while achieving significant wins over teams ranked 47 and 39 spots higher in other years.

Based on pre-tournament KP rankings:

2014. Overachieved
Coaching #70 ranked team, beats #23 ranked team in first round and lose to #13 in the second round.

2015. As Expected
Coaching #44 team, lose to #8 in the first round.

2016. Overachieved
Coaching #45 team, beat #6 in the first round and lose to #37 in the second round.

2017. As Expected
Coaching #24 team, lose to #21 in the first round (92-91)

2020. Covid
Coaching top 30 team coming into its own, tournament is cancelled.

2021. Underachieved
Coaching #3 team, beat #146 in the first round and lose to #9 in the second round.

2022. As Expected
Coaching #17 team, beat #69 in the first round and lose to #5 in the second round.

I think there is too small of a sample size to draw broad conclusions (especially at a high major platform where deep runs are more realistic), but I'd be ok with any coach that meets or beats KenPom expectations 5 of 6 appearances and overachieves twice as often as he underachieves.

The 2021 second round loss to a wildly underseeded #9 was disappointing, but in the end was a 70-30ish probability game that we didn't win in a sudden death tournament format to a KenPom top 10 opponent. I don't like it, but can live with that knowing if we keep landing high seed appearances our time will come.
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This.

And to add:

Take a coach like Jay Wright, who’s won 2 national championships and made two final fours (on 16 trips).

From 2005-2009, Jay went to the Sweet 16 (twice), Elite 8, & Final Four, with one First Round loss (as a 9 seed).

Very good tournament coach, yeah?

Well, over the next 5 seasons, from 2010-2015, Jay Wright doesn’t make the second weekend a single time.

He has a few low seeds during that time (two 9 seeds & both lost to 8 seeds in the first round).

But he also had:

A 2 seeds who lost in the Round Of 32.
Another 2 seed who lost in the Round Of 32.
And a 1 seed who lost in the Round Of 32.

You could argue he underperformed in the tourney in 5 straight seasons and 3 of the 5 were similar levels of disappoint to what we experienced last year.

Did Jay lose his touch? Did he forget how to coach when it mattered most?

Well, no. In the next 6 seasons, sprinkled in with a few Round Of 32 losses:

2016 - won the national championship as a 2 seed.
2018 - won the national championship as a 1 seed.
2022 - made the Final Four as a 2 seed.

If BU keeps building talented teams & we keep making the tourney, the wins will come.
 
#668      

MannyBianco

MannyBianco
MannyBianco
Ga65 said:
Question is did he under perform in the tournament or over perform in conference play? Or does he have trouble performing with one starter out, one with one eye, and a critical sixth man still recovering from a concussion. Guess he just doesn’t reference the forum before games. Probably listens to those assistants who obviously don’t know anything.
Click to expand...
You’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about just this season. Underwood’s been a HC for nine seasons, with considerable success at all stops. Obviously a very good coach. Six NCAAT appearances, but never beyond the first weekend. Tournament play is not his strength.

Don’t misinterpret this as coach bashing. I remember very clearly where our program was when he got here.
the juiceman cometh said:
Pretty strong conclusion to draw based on this:

SFA year 1 - 12-seed, wins 1st round loses in 2nd.

SFA year 2 - 12- seed, loses 1st round

SFA year 3 - 14-seed, wins 1st round loses in 2nd (by 1pt FWIW)

Ok. St. - 10-seed loses 1st rd (FWIW team was 12-20 the previous season)

Based on seeding, none of those teams were favorites to make it out of the 1st round, much less make it to the Sweet 16. His last year at SFA, that 14-seed team beat the #8 team in the country in the 1st round. While it's true BU has never gotten to the 2nd weekend you leave out a massive amount of context with that statement.
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And still, every year we see teams seeded in the bottom half put together a run to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Coaches usually get a lot of the credit for this. More often we see teams with protected seeds methodically defeat lower seeded teams to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Is it wrong to notice that BU hasn’t done either, while still acknowledging that we wouldn’t even be talking about tournament success if he weren’t here? Is it too much to want to see some success at the national level?
 
#669      

danielb927

danielb927
Orange Krush Class of 2013
Rochester, MN
danielb927
MannyBianco said:
And still, every year we see teams seeded in the bottom half put together a run to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Coaches usually get a lot of the credit for this. More often we see teams with protected seeds methodically defeat lower seeded teams to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Is it wrong to notice that BU hasn’t done either, while still acknowledging that we wouldn’t even be talking about tournament success if he weren’t here? Is it too much to want to see some success at the national level?
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It's not wrong to notice the lack of a sweet sixteen, nor to want that success. The mistake is assuming that tournament success in any span of a few years is directly under a head coach's control. Beyond putting together a strong team, it's pretty random. The fact that coaches get a lot of the credit doesn't change this.
 
#672      

Roundball Sage

R
Roundball Sage
Navy_illini said:
Success in the tournament is about matchups and luck.
Click to expand...

And there is another really big factor: ATTITUDE.

Tournament ball is a different animal from regular season. You have to have ice in your veins and the heart of a lion and the confidence (cockiness) of a rooster to succeed in post-season play.

Certain teams and certain players just have that confidence and swagger that you must have to get to the Promised Land in tournament ball. They might lay in the weeds with six or eight losses during the season and then turn it on when it really counts. Other teams come in with very few losses and then always seem to have that ‘unexpected upset’ derail them. And certain coaches are more geared to tournament success as well.

Again, personality and attitude is key. Basketball is a sport where a guy’s basic personality really is on display on the court all the time. Old Schoolers: think Ray Meyer and DePaul in their glory years around 1980. They came into the tournaments with very few losses and then quickly washed out. The guy couldn't seem to buy a tournament win despite having great floor talent for years. (They had ONE good year, yes).

The biggest disappointment so far in the resurgence of the Illini to National prominence is the lack of progress in developing a Tournament Attitude. This is JOB ONE for next season and the future.

The Illini need to bring in guys with that 'Tournament' attitude. A little cockiness is a good thing on the court. Bringing ‘Attitude’... and then backing it up on the floor during crunch time.

One reason so many of these Blue Bloods end up heading off to the Final Four is that the program just exudes that kind of belief in themselves. It rubs off on the new guys who come in... and Everyone is always aware of what the high expectation level is.
 
#675      

dbeaverfg

dbeaverfg
dbeaverfg
MannyBianco said:
You’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about just this season. Underwood’s been a HC for nine seasons, with considerable success at all stops. Obviously a very good coach. Six NCAAT appearances, but never beyond the first weekend. Tournament play is not his strength.

Don’t misinterpret this as coach bashing. I remember very clearly where our program was when he got here.

And still, every year we see teams seeded in the bottom half put together a run to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Coaches usually get a lot of the credit for this. More often we see teams with protected seeds methodically defeat lower seeded teams to finish in the sweet sixteen or beyond. Is it wrong to notice that BU hasn’t done either, while still acknowledging that we wouldn’t even be talking about tournament success if he weren’t here? Is it too much to want to see some success at the national level?
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I see where you're coming from but, the comparison you're making is BU vs. the field of tournament teams. Of course, there are lower-seeded teams that make a run every year. However, it's not the same lower-seeded team that makes a run year after year. Need to compare individual coach's results to other individual coaches.
 
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