Illini Basketball

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#301      
What did Underwood do this year that made everyone turn on him? It's not like he started yelling at players this year He also had to replace every starter from last year and still made the tournament. I want a tournament run as much as the next guy, but is the Arkansas game the make or break on if he can coach or not? I'm just kind of confused. Do you remember what this program looked like when he took over?
My personal list:
The yelling is fine, but.
--The incident with Epps at the end of year was very Bobby Knight/Brian Kelly red faced jerkesque which I think reflects poorly on our school.
Played a style of basketball that didn't fit his roster and wasn't pleasant to watch
--Introduced fear that without Kofi, Ayo, & (to some extent) Gentry his offense doesn't appear to be a thing
--I.e. the team always seemed like they were waiting for their moment to play hero ball vs run sets that played to their strengths
Shopped for another job, again
--I wouldn't have considered getting excited about replacements had he not. I don't think Whitman would have either.

If/when he comes back I will be rooting for him and the team. But the perception is that NIL & B10 media deal environments favor the Illini, so if he were to leave Illinois we would have a shot at a comparable coach, if not an X & O improvement.
 
#302      
It’s 6 years later. Whatever the program looked like 6 years ago is irrelevant. The year that Groce got fired:

Groce’s 5th year. 18-14 (8-10)
Underwood’s 6th year: 20-13 (11-9)

Not that much different. Underwood’s issues is his record without Kofi, and the yearly attrition of key players that will prevent this team from getting to the next level.

Most fans aren’t happy with this level. Better than Groce isn’t enough. Not 6 years into a regime.

Just my opinion
I think the attrition is overblown. Yes there’s been attrition but not that many key players have left. And the ones that have haven’t exactly thrived at their next location. For instance, if Ace and Belo had stayed and we rolled with them as our starting backcourt this year that would have been an unmitigated disaster and people would be screaming about BU’s complacency and unwillingness to upgrade talent in the portal era.

We will see what happens with Skyy and probably Jaden. And props to Podz for blowing up but he was third in the rotation of the 3 frosh last year and was probably our 10th guy coming into this year. Hard to blame the kid of leaving and hard to anticipate your 10th guy will take that kind of leap.

If anything, I think BU and staff can be criticized for gambling too much on high drama kids who are likely to cause chemistry issues and/or leave. But a good % of highly ranked kids come with that kind of drama. Hard to balance that. But of all the guys we’ve lost there’s at most 1-2 guys who would have played a key role this year or future years.
 
#303      

hooraybeer

Pittsburgh, PA
Epps can absolutely be a starting, lead guard on an excellent team.. disappointing if true
 
#304      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
If anything, I think BU and staff can be criticized for gambling too much on high drama kids who are likely to cause chemistry issues and/or leave.
Or, to put it in terms that are less hostile and accusatory to teenagers who have worked their butt off and been model citizens, the staff may be set up to acquire players who aren't well suited to thrive under BU's leadership.

It's an echo of the Jerrance Howard/Bruce Weber dynamic. Jereme Richmond was anything but a model citizen, but you can certainly draw parallels between this season and 2010-11.

The next year's team was ranked 13th in the preseason, featured 3 future NBA players and was 15-3 (4-1) ranked 22nd in the country on January 19th and then the season and Weber regime utterly imploded.

Weber was a leakier ship on much thinner ice at that point, but those are uncomfortable parallels, certainly.
 
#305      

blackdog

Champaign
It’s 6 years later. Whatever the program looked like 6 years ago is irrelevant. The year that Groce got fired:

Groce’s 5th year. 18-14 (8-10)
Underwood’s 6th year: 20-13 (11-9)

Not that much different. Underwood’s issues is his record without Kofi, and the yearly attrition of key players that will prevent this team from getting to the next level.

Most fans aren’t happy with this level. Better than Groce isn’t enough. Not 6 years into a regime.

Just my opinion

This point has been raised before that this is the rebuilding year after losing everything from last season and it was still better than what Groce achieved with players that had been in his program for years. If the program continues to run at this level for the next couple of season sure there would be cause for concern but it seems like jumping the gun at this point to say his record without Kofi is a problem.
 
#307      
lets put it this way : as official as it can be without it being official :)
I would like an explanation for why Epps is transferring because I'm upset about yet another highly recruited guard, hyped big time by Underwood and his coaching staff, leaving after only a year or so in the program. Epps started every game after Clark bailed, took over the most demanding position in basketball, point guard, as a freshman despite not being a PG before and played it well, provided good outside shooting before hitting a bad slump near season end, was one of only two players (with Shannon) able and/or willing to consistently drive inside for layups. Playing time was not an issue, but perhaps he became increasingly frustrated at having to play out of position, especially when his shooting fell off.
Much has been written on this board at his apparent resentment at being profanely criticized by Underwood more than once during games for all to see and that his attitude gradually soured. Most players today aren't going to endure for long getting reamed out publicly, especially if they feel they aren't being appreciated for taking over a key role that they don't feel comfortable in.
It's not a stretch to believe Epps somewhat saved the season by playing as well as he did at the point because Illinois had no one else able to. Hawkins and Shannon were turnover machines when trying to do so.
Yes, Epps was weak defensively, but he was recruited for his shooting ability, not his defense.
What's most disturbing is that Underwood has now lost five highly recruited guards in the past two seasons (Curbelo, Miller, Podziemski, Clark and Epps). There have been different reasons, and many posters here have said "good riddance" after initially gushing when the kids signed on about how great they would be. But that's a big turnover even in this wild new world of college hoops and it is not a good look for the program.
There was a post a little while ago that Epps didn't listen to the coaches, was lazy and "poison" in the locker room. Hard to believe he would've played such a large role this season if that were true, but if so, why weren't the coaches aware of that reputation during his recruitment? What's more, except for Podziemski who clearly wanted more PT, why were the character/maturity issues of the other four unknown or overlooked by the staff?
Most importantly, should we have confidence that Underwood and his assistants will be able to stop this churn trend and get high school guards who will stay and develop in the program?
 
#309      
This point has been raised before that this is the rebuilding year after losing everything from last season and it was still better than what Groce achieved with players that had been in his program for years. If the program continues to run at this level for the next couple of season sure there would be cause for concern but it seems like jumping the gun at this point to say his record without Kofi is a problem.

The issue is nothing was rebuilt this year. It was a one year team built on guys being here one year and leaving. And if you are having to build a new team every year due to portal attrition, you aren’t going to get anywhere
 
#310      
Some of y’all would make Skip Bayless proud
Shannon Sharpe Wow GIF by MOODMAN
 
#311      

ChiefGritty

Chicago, IL
it seems like jumping the gun at this point to say his record without Kofi is a problem.
There are two obvious critiques to the "look at the coach's record without this one great player" argument with BU.

1. BU is very, very capable of bringing in more great players in the future, indeed Kofi isn't even the best and most impactful player he's recruited to Illinois.
2. BU's record inclusive of SFA and OSU is in fact pretty darned respectable without Kofi

I would just complicate that picture in one respect though. Kofi was an extremely unique player, and by everyone's account including BU's Kofi forced us to play in a certain unique way that evolved a bit over the three years but in which we generally thrived. Kofi's are few and far between and even if we can get individual talents on that scale, we're never going to play in quite the same way, so there is some degree of singularity with him as a figure.

I do think this thing looks best with a back to basket center anchor. Dainja is neither quite as good nor exactly the same as Kofi, but he provides a similar function. I think we ought to keep looking for guys like that given the success they've had in augmenting this system. As opposed to always trying to move back toward positionless trappy switchy ball which hasn't seemed to work for BU at the high major level.
 
#313      
I find the talk about the players who transfer or possibly transferring quite interesting.

On one side you have the "he's gonna be very talented player"

then the other side

"he's not good, i'm not impressed" which then makes me think...why on earth did we recruit him then?
Don't see really anyone saying Epps isn't good. He is good but It's more that he is easily replaceable.
 
#317      
These days really make me appreciate Trent Frazier and Ayo even more. Both could have left, were on a crappy team with a coach that "yelled a lot." Then went on to win the big ten in a stacked year (sorry Michigan) and won the btt. Just wish we could re-play that Loyola game, just was not our day

That's because they weren't put behind junior and senior transfers with immediate eligibility, too.

If Underwood told Epps he wasn't planning on adding a senior transfer PG who wanted significant minutes would Epps even consider leaving?
 
#318      
1. BU is very, very capable of bringing in more great players in the future, indeed Kofi isn't even the best and most impactful player he's recruited to Illinois.

Kofi is the absolute most impactful player he’s recruited.

Kenpom:
2018-19 (Ayo, No Kofi): 84
2019-20 (Ayo, Kofi): 30
2021-22 (Kofi, No Ayo): 20

The team stunk with Ayo but without Kofi.
The team was still good with Kofi, but without Ayo.
 
#320      
Not sure how to link a tweet, but Epps is officially in the portal.
 
#321      
#325      

DB11Headband

Chicago Burbs
From a pure basketball standpoint, anyone spinning this as anything other than a huge failure is kidding themselves.

Jayden will score upwards of 1,500 points the next 3 years.

Of course, a lot more to the game than that-but scorers like him do not grow on trees.

Ultimately, he and his circle didn't exactly align with how things are run here (among other things).

A true shame-really disappointed in how things transpired with this one. I truly thought he could be our Frank Mason, and I think he'll be in that echelon at his next stop out East.
 
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