Illini Football 2022

ChiefGritty said:

A good, succinct, accurate way to put it.

I don't think this is supported by your evidence to be honest.

I think what it shows instead is that if we have a big YEAR, one that gives people a reason to care about our present rather than just hope for our future, we will see an increase that's durable for multiple years, not just wait-and-see for a couple of games.

And I would hypothesize that that new influx will be mostly genuinely new and different people, as opposed to the folks from 2010 coming back.

Start playing games that matter in the present tense and not just for what it may mean for the momentum of a rebuild or a hypothetical recruit visit, and fans attendance choices will reflect that those games matter. Basketball has certainly demonstrated that process in recent years.

This program hasn't played a game that mattered in a decade. And the centralization and nationalization of attention in the sport is raising that "game that matters" bar every year. It's a tough situation.

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I actually agree with much of you said except (and correct me if I misinterpreted your post) that we have seemingly permanently lost fans. I don't think there are people who were willing to go to an Illini football game in 2010 who wouldn't be willing to hop back on the bandwagon for an 8-9-win Illini team. There aren't other teams in the state that would draw these fans in, and we do not face any sort of structural disadvantage for fandom instate ... sure, you are going to have some people who just prefer pro sports and plenty of transplants, but we aren't Auburn trying to draw fans against Alabama. Living in Chicago, I have even noticed the infamous Notre Dame fan base here is (1) not NEARLY as big as people think and (2) incredibly static ... it's made up of Irish/Catholic Chicagoans, especially those who went to Catholic high schools and Catholic colleges that don't have football teams, but it's not actually this mass movement for your average Chicagoan without a team. Perhaps surprising to some, when we are good, those people DO in fact seem to gravitate toward Illinois.

I might agree that it will take more than one or even two good seasons to get the fans back, but I don't think we have "permanently" (depending on your definition of that term, I suppose!) lost any fans. Illinois has a huge alumni base and a very populated state with little instate competition for fandom. We simply haven't given people anything to be proud of for more than a season at a time, and that is emotionally taxing. I still think there are a lot of folks who would buy back in relatively quickly; they just don't want to be hurt again if there isn't a real chance.

DeeAndDWill said:

I'm not confused that there has been plenty of time to fix the in game atmosphere especially for the students, and shame on Thomas and Whitman for not making many (Grange Grove aside) meaningful changes to create a better student environment.

But it is impossible to understate the damage that Ron Guenther did to this program.

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I've said it before but while going to college we always had two or three families get together and tailgate for every home game. My friend's dad started at Illinois in another sport. Orange and blue thru and thru. One weekend the athletic department had people in golf carts measuring how much space you were taking and threatening to fine you. My friend's dad went absolutely BALLISTIC. He chased them off and told them to bring the cops if they back. When we graduated, we all cancelled everything. Ron Guenther's fun police were a full-on reign of terror. Because if you want a successful university and athletic program isn't it smart to alienate all your students and existing season ticket holders? RG wanted a program that appealed to the over 60 crowd. DOWN IN FRONT! As your older alums age and die and your alum pool shrinks... well pretty soon you find yourself with empty seats and you're begging kids to come back. It's a helluva lot easier to keep customers happy than piss them all off and then beg them to come back. And doing all of THAT while running your program(s) into the ground? Solid combination. I mean remember when RG had us in the top third for revenue and bottom fourth for expenses? He ran it cheap and he milked it for all it was worth.

Finger on the pulse on changing student interests and demographics. Broadcast games in mandarin for the benefit of Chinese students. Brilliant.

I have a lot of opinions on this topic and share the sentiment that the gameday experience for the average fan is really, really poor. I rarely attend games at all for this exact reason. Whitman would be wise to go tour The Battery and Truist Park in Atlanta to see the gold standard of gameday experience and find a way to translate that to our sports complex. Put in parking garages then develop the remaining parking lots around MS and SFC with bars, restaurants, retail and event spaces. Make it a place people will come to whether a game is being played or not.


We should probably have a gameday experience thread.

orange100 said:

I have a lot of opinions on this topic and share the sentiment that the gameday experience for the average fan is really, really poor. I rarely attend games at all for this exact reason. Whitman would be wise to go tour The Battery and Truist Park in Atlanta to see the gold standard of gameday experience and find a way to translate that to our sports complex. Put in parking garages then develop the remaining parking lots around MS and SFC with bars, restaurants, retail and event spaces. Make it a place people will come to whether a game is being played or not.


We should probably have a gameday experience thread.

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This 100%. The area around the stadium blows. Grove is ok but there’s so much empty space. Bars restaurants would bring in the Greek life that currently packs in green street at 8am to hit on sorority chicks (my generation exclusively did this rather than go anywhere near the stadium). The atmosphere surrounding the game certainly effects what’s going on inside. One amazing example is Lincoln. That campus is awesome and leads straight into downtown with a massive tailgate experience surrounding.

Fighter of the Nightman said:

I don't think there are people who were willing to go to an Illini football game in 2010 who wouldn't be willing to hop back on the bandwagon for an 8-9-win Illini team.

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There are tons. They just don't follow college football anymore and are a bit older and not really connected to their college years in the same way.

You don't convert 100% of 23 year old "hey lets head back down to campus for the weekend" people into lifelong butts in seats, but Illinois has spent a decade-plus just ripping through those connections with a chainsaw.

They don't come back, what happens is that the conversion rate of the new 23 year olds starts increasing. Along with more local interest and the like, a rising tide lifts all boats.

orange100 said:

Whitman would be wise to go tour The Battery and Truist Park in Atlanta to see the gold standard of gameday experience and find a way to translate that to our sports complex. Put in parking garages then develop the remaining parking lots around MS and SFC with bars, restaurants, retail and event spaces.

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'16caine said:

The area around the stadium blows. Grove is ok but there’s so much empty space.

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'16caine said:

One amazing example is Lincoln. That campus is awesome and leads straight into downtown with a massive tailgate experience surrounding.

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Okay let's make something clear here because I think this is a really backwards line of commentary.

U of I is one of the best situated college football stadiums in the entire country in terms of tailgateable space immediately surrounding the venue. Some horrid mixed-use suburban corporate playground like Rosemont is not the ethos of the sport, it's grills and lawn chairs and pop up tents and all of that. And there is virtually no one in the nation as well set up to do it as we are.

Don't look that gift horse in the mouth. Make it work. Lots of thorny questions there, but it seemed impossible that they'd ever take the blue hairs parking away in what's now Grange Grove immediately adjoining the stadium and Mike Thomas of all people did it (resulting fairly directly in his being deposed in a coup of course, but I digress).

No one shows up at these games. Parking is not a big issue. Take those lemons and make lemonade.

Mr. Tibbs said:

we’d get 75% of the way there if we simply play hard nosed football and won 6-8 games a year .

i’m more confident this can happen within the next 2 seasons than I have felt in the last 12 years

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Absolutely.

But that's the path of most resistance. Effectively, our stance has been "when we're winning, people will feel they have no choice but to be here" when it should be "we should make this something everyone would hate to miss out on, even if we're losing."

mattcoldagelli said:

Absolutely.

But that's the path of most resistance. Effectively, our stance has been "when we're winning, people will feel they have no choice but to be here" when it should be "we should make this something everyone would hate to miss out on, even if we're losing."

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I get it .

I just think that ship has sailed and all the circuses you can think of won’t bring 15,000 more butts down there until we play well . We don’t have to go 8-4. but score some points and play good fundamental defense and people will come

Mr. Tibbs said:

I get it .

I just think that ship has sailed and all the circuses you can think of won’t bring 15,000 more butts down there until we play well . We don’t have to go 8-4. but score some points and play good fundamental defense and people will come

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I agree.

To get something like that to happen, you need a new market. In the late 70s, I went to almost every game and sat in the horseshoe. Some of the games you got in for free if you wore your high school football jersey. The coaching staff talks about reaching out to the state high schools ... maybe offering cheap seats to a bunch of rowdy kids for certain games.

Of course, this was back in the day when your parents would pull up out front and kick you out of the car without a care in the world.

sacraig said:

The best part is that, while the Aggies are historically a better program than us, it's actually not by a whole lot. But they put such a major focus on tradition and game day experience that it has become a cultural touchstone for their fans and students. Now they're reaping what they've been showing for generations.

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I'm perplexed at how you would define a "whole lot" if this isn't a whole lot

TAM - 744-478-44 (.608) 42 Bowl games
UIUC - 609-612-49 (.498) 19 Bowl games

TheChief4Life said:

My wife and I had season tickets for the past 17 years. We have a 10 and 12 years old that had been to every home Illinois game (sans 2020 season) since birth. Lived in Springfield for the first 12 years of those years, and now live in St. Louis. However…

The game experience is not enjoyable. I’m not talking about the product on the field, I’m talking the game experience in general. Grange Grove was an awesome improvement, but I feel it has yet to be fully or correctly utilized. Once inside the stadium it feels like you are in a prison. You get yelled at for standing, the student section is half full and they are never excited, the pregame and entrance of the players is a joke, there’s no real fan experience, etc. I’m not sure what the fix is (or if I’m just being cranky), but when the team isn’t winning, there HAS to be some sort of effort to get fans into the stadium and make it “worth it”. I’m just not seeing it. Even cheap tickets (and they ARE cheap) isn’t a real reason for people to drive 2+ hours to attend a game (let alone these random Thursday and Friday night games).

Winning will solve a lot of problems, but so will improving the experience. You cannot keep banking on the most loyal of fans to keep buying season tickets.

Anyway… we will there for an 18th year this season… and I’ll complain about the experience again after each game.

Loyalty creates suckers.

I’m a sucker.

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When I was growing up my Dad would take a group of usually 12 to 20 fathers and sons to a game or 2 each year. This was in the mid to late 80's. The one thing I remember is you tailgated where you parked... you did not have to worry about what lot you were in or that you were part of the IFUND. My point is simply it has become harder to tailgate and has in my opinion taken some of the fun out if it.

DeeAndDWill said:

I'm perplexed at how you would define a "whole lot" if this isn't a whole lot

TAM - 744-478-44 (.608) 42 Bowl games
UIUC - 609-612-49 (.498) 19 Bowl games

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Those aren't identical to the stats I saw (but not far off). But the number of conference championships is similar, both have losing bowl records, but they've got a ~.600 record and ours is ~.500. I said they were better but it's not as dramatic as you'd think given how different the revenue and enthusiasm are.

mattcoldagelli said:

Absolutely.

But that's the path of most resistance. Effectively, our stance has been "when we're winning, people will feel they have no choice but to be here" when it should be "we should make this something everyone would hate to miss out on, even if we're losing."

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I feel like the right way to approach the problem is that you're throwing a big party in the areas to the west and south of MS, and just leave the question of anyone buying tickets for or turning up to the football game out of it. Ole Miss is not unlike that really, there's more of that in big time college football than I think we appreciate.

It could be good and fun and valuable in its own right even if the team stinks and the game is a highly optional part of the experience. Indiana does this well, I've been told.

Mr. Tibbs said:

I just think that ship has sailed and all the circuses you can think of won’t bring 15,000 more butts down there until we play well . We don’t have to go 8-4. but score some points and play good fundamental defense and people will come

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I understand the impetus of this. We posters here understand the game well enough and the national environment well enough to know that under Beckman, Cubit, and Lovie, in different ways we were just being sold a shoddy, plainly defective, poor quality control football product, independent of the outcome of games. We're sophisticated enough consumers to really deeply feel that and be insulted by it.

But I think the idea that 6 wins and minor bowls causes a surge in interest just won't prove to be accurate. I think the bar would be that we'd have to be in genuine contention for the B1G West, which is worrying because the B1G West will be gone in a couple of years and the bar to be having any broader involvement in the college football conversation goes much, much higher.

sacraig said:

Those aren't identical to the stats I saw (but not far off). But the number of conference championships is similar, both have losing bowl records, but they've got a ~.600 record and ours is ~.500. I said they were better but it's not as dramatic as you'd think given how different the revenue and enthusiasm are.

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The highest ratio of genuine fan obsession to success in the past 50 years or so is Texas A&M by a country mile. And their current mission to will a national powerhouse into existence by just blunt force of money and faking that they already have one is beautiful and funny and gross and deeply, deeply American. I love this sport.

Dan said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551930357141803008

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Palcho is not quite the player we projected he might be before his injury, but he's good, and his experience and solidity raises the floor on this team considerably.

Both the Illini and Bears will go not one inch further than their offensive lines can bring them, and while I'm pessimistic on both, there's half a drop of hope with the Illini and he's the biggest reason why, thank god he came back.

"Veteran Power-5 special teams coordinator Sean Snyder comes to Champaign from USC, where he spent the 2020 and 2021 seasons as special teams coordinator. Previously, Snyder spent more than two decades at Kansas State, where his father, Bill Snyder, was a legendary head coach."

Dan said:

"Veteran Power-5 special teams coordinator Sean Snyder comes to Champaign from USC, where he spent the 2020 and 2021 seasons as special teams coordinator. Previously, Snyder spent more than two decades at Kansas State, where his father, Bill Snyder, was a legendary head coach."

Miller Remains on Health-Related Leave, Snyder Added - University of Illinois Athletics

Veteran Power-5 special teams coordinator Sean Snyder has been added as Special Teams Coordinator/Specialists Coach

fightingillini.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551960476845760517

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This could be a very good hire.

Glad to see a quote from Miller that, while his recovery is still long-term, his prognosis has improved.

GoodePodzMelendez said:

This could be a very good hire.

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Yeah his resume is actually extremely solid.

I think this goes to show Bret has some serious connections that I don’t even think Lovie had. Or at least the ability to make crucial moves like this in a pinch.

Dan said:

"Veteran Power-5 special teams coordinator Sean Snyder comes to Champaign from USC, where he spent the 2020 and 2021 seasons as special teams coordinator. Previously, Snyder spent more than two decades at Kansas State, where his father, Bill Snyder, was a legendary head coach."

Miller Remains on Health-Related Leave, Snyder Added - University of Illinois Athletics

Veteran Power-5 special teams coordinator Sean Snyder has been added as Special Teams Coordinator/Specialists Coach

fightingillini.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1551960476845760517

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Welcome, Coach Snyder. Prayers sent for Coach Miller…

Snyder played at Iowa — albeit for just one year. Despite that looks like a very good hire.

ChiefGritty said:

There are tons. They just don't follow college football anymore and are a bit older and not really connected to their college years in the same way.

You don't convert 100% of 23 year old "hey lets head back down to campus for the weekend" people into lifelong butts in seats, but Illinois has spent a decade-plus just ripping through those connections with a chainsaw.

They don't come back, what happens is that the conversion rate of the new 23 year olds starts increasing. Along with more local interest and the like, a rising tide lifts all boats.




Okay let's make something clear here because I think this is a really backwards line of commentary.

U of I is one of the best situated college football stadiums in the entire country in terms of tailgateable space immediately surrounding the venue. Some horrid mixed-use suburban corporate playground like Rosemont is not the ethos of the sport, it's grills and lawn chairs and pop up tents and all of that. And there is virtually no one in the nation as well set up to do it as we are.

Don't look that gift horse in the mouth. Make it work. Lots of thorny questions there, but it seemed impossible that they'd ever take the blue hairs parking away in what's now Grange Grove immediately adjoining the stadium and Mike Thomas of all people did it (resulting fairly directly in his being deposed in a coup of course, but I digress).

No one shows up at these games. Parking is not a big issue. Take those lemons and make lemonade.

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I don’t think I was clear. I don’t disagree at all. Develop the tailgating experience and it can be top notch. The Lincoln example was to point out they have more than just tailgating. Not everyone is going to engage in that and having another area to draw fans to/into the game can only increase attendance at the game itself. Midwest college football is of course tailgate central. I’m just saying having option that don’t require walking to green or neil street which isn’t really doable when it’s 100 degrees is a possible future addition to game day.

ChiefGritty said:

The highest ratio of genuine fan obsession to success in the past 50 years or so is Texas A&M by a country mile. And their current mission to will a national powerhouse into existence by just blunt force of money and faking that they already have one is beautiful and funny and gross and deeply, deeply American. I love this sport.

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Yes! Well said. A&M fans are perhaps the most delusional fans in the country, and for that I respect them a great deal.

ChiefIllinois said:

Yeah his resume is actually extremely solid.

I think this goes to show Bret has some serious connections that I don’t even think Lovie had. Or at least the ability to make crucial moves like this in a pinch.

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Lovie's connections more or less consisted of family members and ex-NFL players who couldn't find a job elsewhere

DeeAndDWill said:

I'm perplexed at how you would define a "whole lot" if this isn't a whole lot

TAM - 744-478-44 (.608) 42 Bowl games
UIUC - 609-612-49 (.498) 19 Bowl games

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With regard to total number of bowl games, one subtlety MAY be that the Big 10 only allowed 1 bowl team per season up until close to 1980 (IIRC). One would have to look at TAM's history to determine how much of that differential is from prior to the Big opening up to multiple (now too many) bowls per year.

Ander1345 said:

Is Nebraska really supposed to be that much better this season?

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I think it’s probably a reflection of how they weren’t really supposed to be that bad last season. So media has them progressing (?) to the mean a bit. Like a reverse 2021 Hoosiers.