Illinois 80, Missouri 77 Postgame

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#501      
I'm going to defend my officiating brethren here. Unless anyone has hard evidence that point-shaving or match-fixing is occurring, I would really appreciate not spreading conspiracy theories about these kinds of things on this board.

Officials in general are good people who are performing a hard job in challenging circumstances. While I'll never say never that an individual official may be involved, the idea that many are doing this simply defies belief. It would take a LOT of people not saying anything, and that's just not going to happen.

It's completely fair to raise questions about specific plays or an approach to a game, but to raise questions about match-fixing is where I'd like to draw the line.
Appreciate your post very much as a 30+ year football official but you are p*ssing into a hurricane trying to speak rational truth about officiating to this crowd, I took a shot at it years ago but just ended up blocking/reporting some of the worst offenders, staying away from the game threads (mostly), and capitulating to the sad reality that these are largely fans with no interest in anything but blaming the refs whenever they can.
 
#502      
Apropos to nothing, the discussion about basketball officials reminded me of one of Ed Hightower's stories about a game at Oklahoma when Billy Tubbs was coaching. No. 5 Oklahoma was playing No. 3 Missouri. Tubbs already had been assessed one technical and, after a controversial call, the sellout crowd was throwing things on the floor. Hightower said Tubbs told him he could calm things down if Hightower would let him address the crowd on the PA system. Against his better judgment, Hightower allowed Tubbs to address the crowd. Said Tubbs, "Regardless of how terrible the officiating is...please don't throw things onto the floor."
Hightower gave him a second T, resulting in Tubbs' ejection. The Sooners then went on a 25-9 run and beat Mizzou 112-105.
I think officials do the best they can with a game that has gotten so quick and physical. Just wish they wouldn't call a foul a minute. Makes it hard to watch.

And wishing all a blessed Christmas!
 
#504      
Reasons we won: 40-30 rebound margin. 22-23 FT

Reasons we nearly lost: 18 TO's. Terrible 3PT%. Horrible officiating.

Speaking of 3PT shooting we are not shooting it well. In non cupcake games we are barely above 30% and that's with including the one outlier against Arky. If we are going to play 4 or 5 out we need better shooters. Gonna need to spend some practice time on sets that will get more inside offense.
Silver lining: our two “elite” shooters Hummer & Will are a combined 18% from three this month, and were ranked 24th and still in a pretty good spot.
 
#505      
I was a ref for 12 years at the high school level. This was back in the day when there were only 2 refs. I can't begin to tell you how many moments of contact can be called either way. Or not called at all. But the ref has no luxury of pondering. You have to blow the whistle IMMEDIATELY and make a call. And if you were the lead ref, often you didn't even know if the ball went in the basket or not; you had to depend on the trail official to provide that info. Meanwhile, you're also counting down the 3 seconds in the lane. It's a terribly difficult job, and if you think you made the wrong call, there's no time for thinking. Just move on. Most people who criticize basketball officials would swallow the whistle if you put them on the baseline to track the mayhem in the post. You don't get even a moment of hesitation.
 
#506      
I was a ref for 12 years at the high school level. This was back in the day when there were only 2 refs. I can't begin to tell you how many moments of contact can be called either way. Or not called at all. But the ref has no luxury of pondering. You have to blow the whistle IMMEDIATELY and make a call. And if you were the lead ref, often you didn't even know if the ball went in the basket or not; you had to depend on the trail official to provide that info. Meanwhile, you're also counting down the 3 seconds in the lane. It's a terribly difficult job, and if you think you made the wrong call, there's no time for thinking. Just move on. Most people who criticize basketball officials would swallow the whistle if you put them on the baseline to track the mayhem in the post. You don't get even a moment of hesitation.
I've just started this year. My ire for officials has nearly completely depleted. It's ridiculously difficult. If you ever complain about calls or blame a game on officials, you should go ref a 5th grade girls game just to see how hard it is even at that level sometimes.
 
#507      
Lmao, if a Wendy’s cook messes up my Baconator, I smh and shrug.

If I pay $100 for a professional chef to make my steak, you damn skippy I’m complaining when he f’s up.

In other words, I will continue to complain and point out the terrible job and obvious incompetence of some pitiful “professional” officials.
 
#508      
I agree, officiating is terribly difficult. HOWEVER, these guys are pulling in anywhere from $1000-$2000 per game. Many do multiple games per week. Now, annually, the salary is nowhere near where it should be given the money involved in collegiate sports, required travel, the abuse officials take etc. So, in my humble opinion, what should happen is the NCAA needs to increase the pay (I'm talking double/triple), BUT REQUIRE full time employment. No more "police chiefs," superintendents, insurance executives yada, yada on the side. In the offseason, meaningful training, film study, real individual evaluation needs to take place. Until then, I believe the game will continue to suffer from poor officiating. Just another of the mismanaged aspects of the sport(s) by the NCAA and conferences. Too cheap to implement a sound, quality system to manage their product, and we are stuck with what we have now.
 
#509      
I think it's as simple as Underwood loves the 3 pt shot. He wants that stretch 4. I'm not sure what he wants to stretch the defense for, if we just set up a ring around the 3 pt line and jacks 3s. If you were stretching the defense to get good post looks or create driving lanes, I'd get it. But that's not what we do. We've dropped a bit, but currently 51.1% of our shots are 3s.

I would think, if we really wanted to keep with largely 4 out 1 in, you could have Morez be the 1 in and Ivisic being out. I'd think that is not a great plan though. Ivisic is a wizard with assists in the paint. I think the staff is going to have to use the Christmas break to work on an offense that works with Morez and Ivisic in the game together. Perhaps Humrichous will work better coming off the bench with fresh legs when everyone else is a little tired.
Coleman has been our best stretch four so far. We need a stretch four who can actually shoot.
 
#510      
I agree, officiating is terribly difficult. HOWEVER, these guys are pulling in anywhere from $1000-$2000 per game. Many do multiple games per week. Now, annually, the salary is nowhere near where it should be given the money involved in collegiate sports, required travel, the abuse officials take etc. So, in my humble opinion, what should happen is the NCAA needs to increase the pay (I'm talking double/triple), BUT REQUIRE full time employment. No more "police chiefs," superintendents, insurance executives yada, yada on the side. In the offseason, meaningful training, film study, real individual evaluation needs to take place. Until then, I believe the game will continue to suffer from poor officiating. Just another of the mismanaged aspects of the sport(s) by the NCAA and conferences. Too cheap to implement a sound, quality system to manage their product, and we are stuck with what we have now.
This is a fair take, however there is something to the other side of this argument. Coaches are coaching players to push the officials to make calls. The style of play that has taken over basketball is basically hunting for calls. I personally never much cared for TSJ's fly into people move. It makes sense in current day basketball, but I don't think its good for the game.

Rules need to be taught to avoid, not to push. I think overall basketball theory is currently pushing a style that aims to push the lines of the rules in every respect.
 
#511      
Coleman has been our best stretch four so far. We need a stretch four who can actually shoot.
Humrichous is shooting 35% from 3 despite going 4 for 21 in the last 4 games. It’s a slump and he’ll bounce back. I’m not worried about this shooting. I think his defense will improve too. He’s pretty good at talking on the court but it’s so freaking frustrating seeing how he gets tossed back so easily when he gets a little off balance.
 
#513      
I don’t think officials are betting on games. I just think they are incompetent. Why is their whistle so inconsistent consistently? We’ve all seen games COMPLETELY called differently in the second half than the first. Why is that? The call you make or don’t make in the first half call it or don’t call it the same in the second half half. And call it the same for both teams. I don’t care if the call is bad, just call it badly consistently on both teams. They’ll figure out how to play w the consistently bad call. Just like a horrible baseball imo behind the plate, the hitters adjust during the game if the outside strike is called.
 
#514      
This is a fair take, however there is something to the other side of this argument. Coaches are coaching players to push the officials to make calls. The style of play that has taken over basketball is basically hunting for calls. I personally never much cared for TSJ's fly into people move. It makes sense in current day basketball, but I don't think its good for the game.

Rules need to be taught to avoid, not to push. I think overall basketball theory is currently pushing a style that aims to push the lines of the rules in every respect.
Very good point. I also think officials should be trained not to call some of those blatant attempts. There are certain types of plays that fall into that category and are not really basketball plays. One of the obvious ones is when the offensive player has used his dribble and then leaps forward into the defensive player on a jump shot that really isn't a shot at all but just an obvious attempt to draw a foul. Should be a no-call. I'm not talking about a driving shot attempt or even a shot fake that gets a defender off his feet. I'm talking about those plays where the defender is actually in good position and the offensive player creates the contact on a jump shot. While it's not enough contact to call a charge, it also should not be a foul on the defender.
 
#515      
This is a fair take, however there is something to the other side of this argument. Coaches are coaching players to push the officials to make calls. The style of play that has taken over basketball is basically hunting for calls. I personally never much cared for TSJ's fly into people move. It makes sense in current day basketball, but I don't think its good for the game.

Rules need to be taught to avoid, not to push. I think overall basketball theory is currently pushing a style that aims to push the lines of the rules in every respect.
Also a fair take. The thing is as an example, every year there is some "point of emphasis" that the NCAA puts out. What "normally" happens is we see this point of emphasis stressed and officiated early season. But then as the season progresses, officials (and the leagues that hire them) fall back into the same inconsistent application of the emphasized rule and the rule book as a whole. Then, the following season it's all but forgotten for the new "point of emphasis."

If you have true, professional full time officials and a real effort by the NCAA and the leagues that participate in it, then maybe there would be a chance to get on the same page as far as the rules and what needs to be called and how. But more importantly, a plan of how to improve the product that we watch by CONSISTENTLY calling the games. That is what is clearly lacking. Not only from game to game, but from minute to minute in individual games. That is what is extremely frustrating as a fan - and I'm pretty sure as a coach and player. The consistent inconsistency. It's not that much to ask for a multi-million (billion?) dollar industry to fix its product. If there were consistency then coaches and players would know how to play game to game.

Take this game, there were 43 fouls called. Even so, there were blatant fouls NOT called that most certainly should have been called. Mizzou shot 37 FREAKING FTs to our 23; fortunately we made ours and they missed 25% of theirs or this would have been a comfortable win for them. They were called for 5 fewer fouls than us. The FT disparity defies credibility to any objective person who watched the game and saw the way that they were playing. This inconsistency happens pretty much every game, to the point that one has to assume it is intentional. It's out of control, and overshadows the enjoyment of watching. It should be fixed. But, to borrow a reference from another post, voicing this frustration is like pissing into a hurricane because IT NEVER CHANGES!!! Sorry for the rant, it's just a very frustrating thing for someone who has watched it occur for 40+ years.
 
#516      
1735063828371-jpeg.38156


... it's more like 6 hours.
... 90 minutes after a win; 90 seconds after a loss.
 
#517      
One of the obvious ones is when the offensive player has used his dribble and then leaps forward into the defensive player on a jump shot that really isn't a shot at all but just an obvious attempt to draw a foul. Should be a no-call.
Even more than this, I think it should be an offensive foul.

On the subject of officiating, with some with experience on board, I've always wondered about a play where the ball is passed to a player who, basically, bats the ball to the floor and picks it up, and then proceeds to dribble. Is it because his intent was initially not to dribble with the first touch that this is not double dribble?
 
#518      
I've just started this year. My ire for officials has nearly completely depleted. It's ridiculously difficult. If you ever complain about calls or blame a game on officials, you should go ref a 5th grade girls game just to see how hard it is even at that level sometimes.

Having tried officiating, I completely agree it's difficult. 2 Officials ain't enough, a lot of calls are 50-50 or close to it, and you get different judgements depending on the angle you have. They need to use video review more often to get calls right, but it's not practical given the flow of the game and lack of play stoppages. It's a sport that will always need well-trained officials, free of bias. And on the business side, the sport wants competitive & entertaining games, and I feel like they select refs that know this.

That said, throwing Morez to the floor was absolutely, 100% a flagrant.
 
#519      
Coleman has been our best stretch four so far. We need a stretch four who can actually shoot.
We miss Coleman. Coleman misses us. Too bad it was time to move on but he would be that stretch guy with better defense at the 4.
 
#524      
I'd like to see Will drive to the basketball more. I'd like to think he's "strong" enough to do that. I think he does have the ability to finish or get fouled and shoot more FTs.

I’d like to see all our players take it to the basket more. The 3-pt shot is s great weapon, but when you rely on it too much, offense can get stagnant
 
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