Illinois 88, Southern 60 Postgame

#151      

Loyalillini10

Urbana, IL
Another really ugly win, bad shooting, too many turnovers, obviously able to physically overpower a very outmatched opponent at the 20th percentile of D1. Hopefully a good week of practices ahead.
You are one of those fans that will never be satisfied with a win unless absolutely everything goes right. The win wasn't ugly and we didn't have a bad shooting night. We had a lot of turnovers and that was rough. They also turned Arizona over, two nights before, 23 times, but you know what their fans are not doing? Talking about how ugly things are, because their team (just like ours) blew them the f@#$ right out of our gym. ffs...
 
#152      
Replying to you but not picking on you specifically, because there are a good number of people on this board who are saying pretty similar things.

Darwin Barney was consistently one of the absolute worst hitters in Major League baseball to get regular playing time during the entire course of his career. Did he hit correctly?

That's the problem I have with this panic folks have whipped themselves into around not having a True Point Guard -- when you strip away everything else, it's about 99.99% vibes and no substance. In recent threads we've had people say all sorts of stuff about Moretti and how he compares to Rodgers. He doesn't turn the ball over (though he had two TOs in 13 minutes just like Ty did last night). He hits free throws (said during the Valpo game at which point he was 2-4 on the night). That he's got a credible jumper (though he has attempted and made just as many threes as Rodgers on the season). That the ball doesn't stick when he's on the court (though there were a few possessions last night where he did the whole Bob Cousy/Andre Curbelo "I'm gonna dribble until something opens up" routine).

If you're like me, you watched a lot of basketball and learned about the game in an era when big men were not only supposed to have specific skills around the basket, but also that they were doing something wrong if they tried to play on the perimeter even if they had the skills to do so. The NBA locked out skilled European big men for the better part of a decade after the Eastern Bloc stopped restricting their movement. We heard all sorts of reasons for this -- I'm partial to 'they were too soft' which is objectively hilarious if you've ever taken the time to watch a basketball game played in Serbia or whatever -- but mostly, coaches had no idea what to do with them.

The game has changed and it's better for it. You can have big guys handle the ball or make plays or shoot jump shots and it's actually a good thing, and at least the people on the inside of the game recognize that as a thing that you want to take advantage of if you can.

But we're not even talking about a big man here. We're talking about Ty Rodgers, who is maybe 6'6" and in today's game there are plenty of 6'6" guards. Since he's Not A Point Guard because he's never played Point Guard, though, folks have jumped to all sorts of conclusions about what he can and can't do. Does he have experience running the point at the college level? No, but he's got just as much as Moretti or Gibbs-Lawhorn. Still, those guys Are Point Guards, maybe because they wouldn't have looked out of place playing the role 40 years ago, or maybe because, I don't know, reasons?

But there's zero substance behind that. It's just folks wanting the game to look differently than it does today, and frankly, folks having really forgotten what the game looked like back then. Just the worst, most vapid sports talk radio stuff imaginable, and you're gonna keep swinging it around until the facts match up with your narrative.

Anyway, you do you, I'm just gonna tune out, and maybe hope that the people who actually get to make decisions about this stuff aren't listening, either.
This is very true. I was thinking the same thing you actually took the time to draft. Personally, I think a lot of guys say stuff becasue they want to so badly say something profound before somebody else says it. Or, they can't just watch how guys play the game, they need structure and every player needs to be a square block in a square hole. I just want the coaches to put the the players on the floor that gives the team the best chance to win. Those 5 players may change from game to game or within the game itself.

Right now, it is way too soon to question Ty Rodgers at the point. I'm excited to see what he does as a "PG". So far, I don't think Rodgers has not hurt our offense. If Moretti ends up being that 85% FT shooter with great handles, then he could be a guy in there at end of a game with a lead.
 
#154      

skyIdub

Winged Warrior
Well this took a turn
crazy-driving-wrong-parking.gif
 
#155      
Finally came out with some energy tonight. Dancing Bear showed Hawkins how a big man is suppose to play. I guess it's hard for Hawkins to score under the basket when you're 30 feet away from it. Saw some surprising things tonight. Moretti showed some good things getting the ball out on fast breaks to our scorers. Hansberry had few good moments, Guerrier played with some energy tonight.
I guess the downsides continue. Lack of consistent shooting from 3. You're not going to put up 62 points in the paint against Big teams. Domask looked awkward shooting and on defense tonight. We need him and Luke to make those 3's to balance the offense. Shannon is Shannon and when he gets going there is no stopping him. He just needs some help.
I think Dain needs to be in the starting lineup night after night with Coleman coming off the bench. Hawkins is not strong enough or aggressive enough to play in the middle. He can't shoot the 3 and I have never understood when he gets in the middle why he continually refuses to take that 10 footer and passes it off or throws it away.
There were way too many turnovers tonight. Maybe that was due to various lineups playing together but it needs to improve. Over all this was probably the Illini's best game thus far. Maybe they are starting to put things together. I hope Morreti and Dra are both ok. We need them moving forward.
Against Southern…who had a 6’7 guy guarding him. Mid major killer Dain Dainja. Also tell me you don’t know about floor spacing without telling me you don’t know about floor spacing.
 
#158      
Great info...thanks. I'm not asking for you to go back and do this. But if you do again in the future, I'd be interested in unforced errors versus actual steals.
Well. There were 13 steals recorded for Southern in the game. Doesn't say who the victim was. Just the perp.
 
#159      

jjv0004

Greenville, SC
I love forums. So much. Fans of the same teams, same political affiliations, people who otherwise should agree on most stuff, etc. going back and forth about their lack of knowledge of whatever topic is the "hot button" that day. Usually resorts to some name calling or someone calling out someone's intelligence or lack thereof. "Ty is not a point guard!" "Ty is the 2nd or 3rd best point guard in the conference." "Brad can't coach!" "Brad is one of the top coaches in the country!" "Where the Illini finish in conference is all that matters!" "If the Illini don't get to the sweet 16, the season was a failure!"

Good times here on this board.
 
#160      
This is literally your opinion and not fact. If that is the main criterium on how you judge a PG, there are a lot of amazing PGs that have had great careers that you likely did not think were PGs or good PGs. That is okay; it is your opinion (IMO not a good opinion).

When I think of criteria for a great PG I look for ability to initiate the offense, good BB IQ, great court vision, ball-handling skills, able to create for others, great defender, good FT shooter, good outside shooter. Ty checks a lot of those boxes. Therefore, IMO, he is a pretty good PG, at this point, and I think he will only get better.
I agree pretty much with your criteria. Obviously the last 2 on your list are areas in which Ty, to be kind, struggles. He does tick many of the other boxes, though my issue is that while I’d rate him high in some of those areas compared to many forwards I’d only consider him adequate in those areas compared to PGs on the whole. There is a reason BU spent the summer trying to get a PG in the portal and Ty was plan B. So while you rate him pretty good currently, I’d give him an adequate/incomplete for a grade. And I hope he’ll improve because he is the best option we have. But if he doesn’t then I think the Illini will struggle with good teams and in the tourney. Thankfully we have Shannon to hopefully tip the scales in our favor.

I am curious about your idea of what “able to create for others” means. I see that and I think his play/passing leads to those “others” to score. And doesn’t that often result in an assist for the “creator”? So while I agree assists are not the sole purpose of the position, I think they do help measure the ability to create for others. Maybe the way we are using Ty at PG in the offense doesn’t allow for him to rack up assists, but averaging 1.5 apg does not fill me with confidence that creating for others is currently a strength. But here is to him improving across the board and helping us beat the big buys and finally finding tourney success.
 
#161      
You are one of those fans that will never be satisfied with a win unless absolutely everything goes right. The win wasn't ugly and we didn't have a bad shooting night. We had a lot of turnovers and that was rough. They also turned Arizona over, two nights before, 23 times, but you know what their fans are not doing? Talking about how ugly things are, because their team (just like ours) blew them the f@#$ right out of our gym. ffs...
No, I am being realistic. It took 22 minutes to hit a jump shot. Terrence Shannon going right at the basket for a bunch of consecutive possessions is unlikely to be a sustainable offense against power conference competition.
 
#162      

Loyalillini10

Urbana, IL
I agree pretty much with your criteria. Obviously the last 2 on your list are areas in which Ty, to be kind, struggles. He does tick many of the other boxes, though my issue is that while I’d rate him high in some of those areas compared to many forwards I’d only consider him adequate in those areas compared to PGs on the whole. There is a reason BU spent the summer trying to get a PG in the portal and Ty was plan B. So while you rate him pretty good currently, I’d give him an adequate/incomplete for a grade. And I hope he’ll improve because he is the best option we have. But if he doesn’t then I think the Illini will struggle with good teams and in the tourney. Thankfully we have Shannon to hopefully tip the scales in our favor.

I am curious about your idea of what “able to create for others” means. I see that and I think his play/passing leads to those “others” to score. And doesn’t that often result in an assist for the “creator”? So while I agree assists are not the sole purpose of the position, I think they do help measure the ability to create for others. Maybe the way we are using Ty at PG in the offense doesn’t allow for him to rack up assists, but averaging 1.5 apg does not fill me with confidence that creating for others is currently a strength. But here is to him improving across the board and helping us beat the big buys and finally finding tourney success.
Thank you for this well-thought out response and I appreciate your questions. For me "able to create for others" is a kind of culmination of everything that allows another player to be involved in a possession while the player has the ball in hand. Ty is very good at driving and dishing, for example. His assist numbers really don't do him much justice at the moment, but let's not forget it takes two players to make an assist. Ty sees the court very well and has made some great passes while opposing defenses collapse on him (because of his above average driving ability and athleticism), but the Illini haven't been so great at knocking down outside shots (as a team) yet--I do have some faith this will improve. Ty (and everyone else) has made great interior passes to Dain and Dain can put them in, but he is often fouled due to his FT shooting woes. If CH cut more to the basket, we may see some assist numbers improve all around.

Just my take and some observations.
 
#165      
I love forums. So much. Fans of the same teams, same political affiliations, people who otherwise should agree on most stuff, etc. going back and forth about their lack of knowledge of whatever topic is the "hot button" that day. Usually resorts to some name calling or someone calling out someone's intelligence or lack thereof. "Ty is not a point guard!" "Ty is the 2nd or 3rd best point guard in the conference." "Brad can't coach!" "Brad is one of the top coaches in the country!" "Where the Illini finish in conference is all that matters!" "If the Illini don't get to the sweet 16, the season was a failure!"

Good times here on this board.
I would hope we all agree that at this point in th season, Illinois looks to be a very good but definitely not great team.