Illinois 90, Southern 55 Postgame

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#176      
Wonder how McCamey did...?
I thought for sure Deron, Dee or McCamey would have had closer to 3:1 ratios, but all were no more than 2.1.-2.4 to 1. All had more assists per game but many more turnovers.
McCamey in 09-10: 2.065
KJ last year: 1.268
Ayo his final season: 1.58
Frank Williams his final season: 1.59
Dee Brown in 05-06: 2.03
Dee Brown in 04-05: 2.42
Deron Williams in 04-05: 2.42

One guy that might get overlooked:

Chester Frazier in 08-09: 2.41

Anyways, all those guys considered, Keaton right now: 2.94.
 
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#177      
Pru, how are you feeling since getting back home? Hope things are getting better for ya! ILL!
thx for asking.....getting better little by little......I have what is called a field cut vision loss which is greatly affecting my depth perception and reducing my vision in my right eye by 50 % and what vision I've lost has been replaced by wavy colors and multi colored " static noise " images.......the brain filles those lost brain cells fields with random images and makes reading and typing posts most difficult.......but I will recover enough to enjoy life......I really really will..........GO ILLINI !!!!!!!!!
 
#178      
McCamey in 09-10: 2.065
KJ last year: 1.268
Ayo his final season: 1.58
Frank Williams his final season: 1.59
Dee Brown in 05-06: 2.03
Dee Brown in 04-05: 2.42
Deron Williams in 04-05: 2.42

One guy that might get overlooked:

Chester Frazier in 08-09: 2.41

Anyways, all those guys considered, Keaton right now: 2.94.
What was Bruce Douglas?
 
#180      
thx for asking.....getting better little by little......I have what is called a field cut vision loss which is greatly affecting my depth perception and reducing my vision in my right eye by 50 % and what vision I've lost has been replaced by wavy colors and multi colored " static noise " images.......the brain filles those lost brain cells fields with random images and makes reading and typing posts most difficult.......but I will recover enough to enjoy life......I really really will..........GO ILLINI !!!!!!!!!
Praying you recover more than just enough to enjoy life.
 
#181      
Senior season an amazing 3.62

Career 2.30
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#182      
Just Google sets vs actions in basketball
To me sets are a sequence of actions with predefined choice points. (Do you define them differently?) I think both have their places.

Actions:
Actions are much smaller making them easier to learn.
Actions are much easier to "mix up".
Actions are usually simpler because there tend to be fewer moving pieces at once. e.g. This is a 2-man game, this is an iso.
It is often easier to mix personnel with actions than sets.

Sets:
IMO Sets trade dynamic simplicity and "infinite" variations, for timing gains and stability.

Timing gains (sets):

By virtue of being a sequence of action with known choice points, everyone on the team can start into the next action (often multiple simultaneous actions) at the same time vs. having to make an on the fly read of what the ball handler chose next, and then deciding what they should do next.

This reduction in mental processing time enables additional wrinkles such as very precise timing pass opportunities that arise due to the prior action pulling a defender a certain way; e.g. those pretty cut baskets some teams always seem to get. While these sequences are possible with pure actions, they are much harder to pull off.

Compare:
- After X happens, I do Z
- X occurred. What is the ball handler doing next? (pause). The ball handler chose Y (read), so I'll do Z (decision). Each of these takes time. Meanwhile the ball handler has to check "did they choose A, B, C, or Z?" (time to check) They chose Z. Great. Are we on time for that cut pass? (another read, and the timing is much less likely).

Stability gains (sets):

Another advantage of sets is that they are "muscle memory." This makes them good for when the team is rattled and decision making is poor -- both in selection of actions, and reading of actions. Sets say just do what you know, for 10-15s. Calm down. Reset. This is the case where I think this team would benefit the most from sets.

Predictability disadvantage (sets):
As observed, if you run the same set frequently, teams can learn the branch points and defensive sequences. If they are used in a few spots, teams both have less time to learn them during the game, and less incentive to practice against them pre-game.

Learning time tradeoff (sets):
Coaches often then say "if we don't use them often, they aren't worth the practice time to learn." I think having a few is worth it for the stability if nothing else. Other coaches use them as a staple. They can help make up for less athletic members (e.g. WI under Bo.)

[Edit: fix two bad grammar mistakes.]
 
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#183      
Most of you are totally twisting my words pretending like I’m saying our offense isn’t good or that I think Brad or Tyler is a bad coach. When did I ever say our offense wasn’t good? Oh right, I didn’t.

When we don’t shoot well from deep and we shoot 30+ 3’s a game it typically doesn’t go well for us, and that’s when we could use a few set plays (along with BLOB situations).

This portion of Loyalty who thinks you can’t criticize the staff without being put up on the cross is exhausting. I’ve applauded Brad every step of the way but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask him, his son or his staff to IMPROVE. Just like we ask of the players.

All of this from me saying the team played hard and handled their business, but the offense wasn’t perfect. I appreciate all your statistics to draw back on to prove your points, but go touch some grass. Basketball 20 years ago isn’t the same as it was today.

I still don't really know what you were getting at it with the staff part? Just sounded very much like "meh. the offense will never be great with brad at the helm" - so maybe others read it like that too.

As an aside, I have noticed this thing, not just on this board, but in general where if someone gives an opinion, and then gets pushback, it turns into "now im not allowed to criticize?!"
 
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#184      
Yep. Everything we do is a read based on how the defense reacts

I personally can't get enough of hoops. And this conversation you're having here reminds me of an EXCELLENT interview Rick Carisle gave this offseason talking about exactly that - the difference between sets and actions. And how it transformed the Pacers offense into historically one of the best. If you like hoops, even if not an nba fan, this is a fantastic listen. Start at the 2:13 mark.

 
#185      
I still don't really know what you were getting at it with the staff part? Just sounded very much like "meh. the offense will never be great with brad at the helm" - so maybe others read it like that too.

As an aside, I have noticed this thing, not just on this board, but in general where if someone gives an opinion, and then gets pushback, it turns into "now im not allowed to criticize?!"
Kind of like the thing that if someone gives an opinion that is not 100% glowingly complimentary of any aspect of the program, or that offers an opinion as to how the team can be better throughout the season, there are a few defenders of the realm that make it a point to mockingly talk down the poster as if their opinion is any less valid. We all have them; all as valid as any other fan on here. Some are shaped by decades of Illini fandom experience, others are not.
 
#186      
Kind of like the thing that if someone gives an opinion that is not 100% glowingly complimentary of any aspect of the program, or that offers an opinion as to how the team can be better throughout the season, there are a few defenders of the realm that make it a point to mockingly talk down the poster as if their opinion is any less valid. We all have them; all as valid as any other fan on here. Some are shaped by decades of Illini fandom experience, others are not.

For sure. I never said it was unique to one side of the argument or not.

To be fair I didn't see much "mocking" here. I think if you make a general point that sounds something like "the offenese is what it is with the current staff" (again, what it reads like, but maybe that wasn't the point") and you get stats back that show where the offense ranks historically, nationally, etc that's not really what i consider "talking down the poster".

That just seems kinda like a relevant counterpoint, no?
 
#187      
To me sets are a sequence of actions with predefined choice points. (Do you define them differently?) I think both have their places.

Actions:
Actions are much smaller making them easier to learn.
Actions are much easier to "mix up".
Actions are usually simpler because there tend to be fewer moving pieces at once. e.g. This is a 2-man game, this is an iso.
It is often easier to mix personnel with actions than sets.

Sets:
IMO Sets trade dynamic simplicity and "infinite" variations, for timing gains and stability.

Timing gains (sets):

By virtue of being a sequence of action with known choice points, everyone on the team can start into the next action (often multiple simultaneous actions) at the same time vs. having to make an on the fly read of what the ball handler chose next, and then deciding what they should do next.

This reduction in mental processing time enables additional wrinkles such as very precise timing pass opportunities that arise due to the prior action pulling a defender a certain way; e.g. those pretty cut baskets some teams always seem to get. While these sequences are possible with pure actions, they are much harder to pull off.

Compare:
- After X happens, I do Z
- X occurred. What is the ball handler doing next? (pause). The ball handler chose Y (read), so I'll do Z (decision). Each of these takes time. Meanwhile the ball handler has to check "did they choose A, B, C, or Z?" (time to check) They chose Z. Great. Are we on time for that cut pass? (another read, and the timing is much less likely).

Stability gains (sets):

Another advantage of sets is that they are "muscle memory." This makes them good for when the team is rattled and decision making is poor -- both in selection of actions, and reading of actions. Sets say just do what you know, for 10-15s. Calm down. Reset. This is the case where I think this team would benefit the most from sets.

Predictability disadvantage (sets):
As observed, if you run the same set frequently, teams can learn the branch points and defensive sequences. If they are used in a few spots, teams both have less time to learn them during the game, and less incentive to practice against them pre-game.

Learning time tradeoff (sets):
Coaches often then say "if we don't use them often, they aren't worth the practice time to learn." I think having a few is worth it for the stability if nothing else. Other coaches use them as a staple. They can help make up for less athletic members (e.g. WI under Bo.)

[Edit: fix two bad grammar mistakes.]

This is the kind of nuts & bolts type of discussion/analysis that I love. Something I learned a while back, is that Calipari teams actually frequently lead the nation in baseline out of bounds scoring. For all of the heat he gets as a guy who just compiles talent but can't coach, it was surprising to me when I learned that.

That is just one random example, but I do really wish more highly specific data like this was readily available in free, accessible formats. Synergy Sports has a ton of stuff like this but its subscription-based and can be very expensive (Synergy has packages in the range of several thousand dollars per year).

As a software engineer, I've long had dreams of creating SaaS that compiles data from many sources (sports-reference, KP, EvanMiya, Torvik, NET, etcetera) and provides various presentations of it, but it is of course a task that requires more than just one guy who already has a day job to do it right.
 
#188      
Here's where I feel differently. The aspects of basketball that can be improved through game rep include shooting, decision making/passing, and cohesiveness with teammates. They do not include effort, attitude, and character. The main issues that we've seen with Mihailo every time he's gotten an opportunity to play are not issues that improve with increased playing time. When Brad yanked Mihailo immediately in the first half of this game, the issue wasn't the errant pass. All players turn the ball over occasionally (although Mihailo definitely has been more casual with the ball than most). The issue was the loafing back on defense...the lack of any sort of desire to make the subsequent scoring play more difficult for our opponents with effort.

We have Brandon Lee to cover the guard spot in a pinch. Brandon has proven that his WILL play hard and give it his all out there. There's no need for us to try to carry a player whose play has shown that he won't do this.
Totally agree with you here about character traits. I actually thought Lee should be getting more time after his play vs UCONN because of this.

With Mihalo, agreed he should not be out there if there is poor effort. Hopefully tape helps him understand this- I assume verbally it’s not working.
 
#189      
I still don't really know what you were getting at it with the staff part? Just sounded very much like "meh. the offense will never be great with brad at the helm" - so maybe others read it like that too.

As an aside, I have noticed this thing, not just on this board, but in general where if someone gives an opinion, and then gets pushback, it turns into "now im not allowed to criticize?!"
My only point is we’ve had the same issues for years and I’d just like to see an attempt to change some of it. Base line/side line out of bounds plays. Opening the game with a set with a hard off ball screen that gets us a layup or wide open 3.

Brad believes in his guys to shoot the 3 but sometimes you have to tell them to throw it inside and drive the lane.

I know I was ranting earlier but it’s only because I see our weaknesses and want us to WIN IT ALL. Which we’ve never done, not in ‘89 or ‘05.

It all comes from points of passion. So when I played high level basketball and people say I don’t know ball and just refer to analytics I am going to defend myself and my point. Our offense isn’t bad, it’s good, I just want to see us be able to make a second weekend more than once every 15 years….and that takes the ability of our coaching staff to adjust and get better over time.

Go Illini
 
#190      
The Illini's official site is claiming this was a sellout, which seems very unlikely based on history and what I could see of the crowd on TV.

SFC was pretty full actually, in all sections. This would have been a game a lot of families bought specifically because of the holidays and I think there was a deal on it. What they were not was loud (at all). I did enjoy being able to hear what Brad was yelling at the refs and the team. :ROFLMAO:
 
#191      
One nugget from Coach’s postgame on the radio I haven’t seen mentioned is that Big Z has a broken nose. He made it sound like it happened in practice, so that would be on top of his sore nose from the Mizzou game (ouch). He didn’t practice on Sunday apparently.
 
#192      
Well thought out post and I wish we would have gotten something out of Petro? But, most of the reason we are not getting much out of Petro is because KW is simply so much better than anything (frankly than ever?) we have seen out of a Freshman?

I think with these players available at the two “so called” guard spots KW, KB, JD, AS, and Lee we are “pretty” good.

Remember this also assumes (which is for sure possible) that Ty does not return, as you could slate him in to a “guard” slot?

As far as trusting Wagler, in my 58 years watching the Illini, I am not sure I have ever seen a better freshman? Many good ones, but this kid has “it”. He can play the point, he can get others involved, he rebounds, he can get tough baskets, hit 3’s what can’t he do?

I trust him! And bottom line, most every team that wins it all has a stud one and done superstar (Carmelo type) player, we may just have that in KW? You simply have to ride this kid, he plays so within himself truly amazing what he is doing?

I see what you’re saying, but I think at this point what we got is what we got? I think it might work really well if they can hit 35% from 3 are going to be tough to beat?
I like everything you say here, but I wonder what you remember about Derek Harper as a frosh. I remember one of the greatest athletes I've seen at Illinois. Even as a young guy he oozed so much confidence it bordered on arrogance. I don't have any stats on him, but we all got a good look at how scary his defense was. When the ball was in his hands it was in the safe. If you cheated on him, he'd blow right by you.
 
#193      
I like everything you say here, but I wonder what you remember about Derek Harper as a frosh. I remember one of the greatest athletes I've seen at Illinois. Even as a young guy he oozed so much confidence it bordered on arrogance. I don't have any stats on him, but we all got a good look at how scary his defense was. When the ball was in his hands it was in the safe. If you cheated on him, he'd blow right by you.
I remember both Harper and Bruce Douglass were masters with the ball in their hands. I don’t remember a Freshman doing everything this kid does. I really don’t see a weakness in his game on either side of the ball at this point.

Clearly Harper and Deron Williams have to be up there as our great guards as they played so long in the NBA? Still when it’s all said and done, it would not surprise me if this kid ends up being better? Hard to say that really, but so far he is doing more at this stage (in my opinion) than either of them?
 
#194      
True, but we're heading into the grind of the schedule now, where every coach knows the other's tendencies, every team is physical and they'll be playing in some pretty daunting environments, which is where fatigue sets in. Fatigue causes a lot of problems that come in the form of turnovers, missed assignments, getting beat in transition, missed free throws and..........silly fouls, generally of the slap variety.

Boswell, I trust. Wagler, I don't. It simply comes down to experience.

We haven't had a game yet where the backcourt, as a unit, picked up early foul trouble. If we were to get into a situation where Boswell gets 2 and Wagler gets 2 with 5 minutes to go in the first half of a road game.....where do you go? Rolled ankles happen. Taking an elbow to the face playing MSU happens(frequently).

You can't run these guys out there 35+ minutes a night and think that it's not going to come back and cause issues on multiple occasions.

You're taking the "so far, so good" approach, which isn't a good take. Somebody needs to step up and be able to suck up some meaningful minutes in the backcourt. I think that this ship has sailed and we're going to have to default to Lee and try and survive offensively? It looks like that's the way Brad is leaning.

We have a very unique roster in which 2 thru 5 are interchangeable. There's an answer on the roster for a multitude of occurrences. At the 1.....it's the complete opposite.

In the grand scheme of things, I trust Boswell to know how to fully navigate a game, in all aspects, in all situations because he's done it a 60+ times at the highest of levels. He was flat out phenomenal for us the second half of last year.

Wagler hasn't earned that trust yet and no rational human should expect him to be at that level of having that cool, calm, composed demeanor in the midst of chaos. If we're asking him to haul 35+ minutes a night for the next 2 1/2 months and produce at a level where we're expecting him to bring us home in games....it's an irrational and unreasonable ask.

I think that most looked at the roster before the season started and saw trouble at the 1. Petrovic completely flaming out was never really a consideration. Now that it's becoming a reality....every coach in the conference is going to have a game plan of going right at the guards because if there's foul trouble, as of now, we don't have an obvious choice to turn to.
Actually I think Andre and Jake could play those positions if necessary. Still leaves Ben, Mirk and Tomi for the rest. Defense weaker but not terrible and offense still good.
 
#195      
You could do a lot worse than Jake Davis. The more he plays, it seems the more of an asset he becomes. He's gaining confidence and floor vision, and he defends. In fact, the whole team is improving defensively IMO.
Think he can be undervalued as not flashy. But ball doesn’t stick with him, tough guy who always competes and knows and plays his role. Don’t know his +/- rating but suspect it is positive.
 
#196      
Is there another staff in the country that could take a team that plays Jake Davis and Ben Humrichous 40+ minutes a game, along with two true freshman who play 60+ minutes a game and turn it into the #2 offense in the country?

Tyler Underwood is one of the top offensive minds in college basketball.

*waits for “Tyler” to “like” or reply before committing
 
#197      
thx for asking.....getting better little by little......I have what is called a field cut vision loss which is greatly affecting my depth perception and reducing my vision in my right eye by 50 % and what vision I've lost has been replaced by wavy colors and multi colored " static noise " images.......the brain filles those lost brain cells fields with random images and makes reading and typing posts most difficult.......but I will recover enough to enjoy life......I really really will..........GO ILLINI !!!!!!!!!

Well that’s better than 97% of B1G officials pru!🤣👊🏼

Also I read the other part as you’ve just decided to be on a permanent mushroom ride.🤭
 
#198      
Well that’s better than 97% of B1G officials pru!🤣👊🏼

Also I read the other part as you’ve just decided to be on a permanent mushroom ride.🤭
Agreed also sounds like most of his posts looks...lol
 
#199      
Is there another staff in the country that could take a team that plays Jake Davis and Ben Humrichous 40+ minutes a game, along with two true freshman who play 60+ minutes a game and turn it into the #2 offense in the country?

Tyler Underwood is one of the top offensive minds in college basketball.
The staff is very good at identifying the best usage guys offensively and tailoring an offense to that. It’s very cool.
 
#200      
Mmmmm, that seems like a stretch. But who knows? Let's give Wagler a little more time.
 
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