Illinois 93, Wisconsin 87 - Big Ten Tournament Champions

#376      

NarrowJ

NarrowJ
NarrowJ
ChiefGritty said:
Domask had the 7th most turnovers of any Big Ten player.

More than AJ Hoggard, more than Boo Buie, more than Tony Perkins, more than Dug McDaniel, more than Zach Edey. Those guys all had the ball more.

You are ascribing a statistical tendency to Domask that isn't real, I'm sorry to have to keep going at you here.

Domask is a moderately turnover-prone player. He's our team leader in turnovers by a lot. He led the Valley in turnovers last year.

He's still really good! He does many other great things! He's still definitely this roster's best option as a primary ballhandler!
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Using raw turnover numbers is bunk here though. Turnover rate takes all factors into account, mainly volume.

He has the ball a ton, so the raw number will always be high. This easily explains your confusion in this regard.

EDIT: Even if you want to use raw #s, why not include the names above him in the list instead of only the ones below him? There are some really good point guards that have more turnovers (in less games played). Which is another counter point: we've played 34 games... many of the guys you listed have only played 32 (Perkins, Buie, Hoggard and especially McDaniel - he's played 8 less games LOL of course he has less turnovers, duh).
 
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#378      

sbillini

sbillini
st petersburg, fl
sbillini
I think this Domask turnover debate is an interesting one.

To me, overall he's a good ball handler, but with one glaring weakness, and one that teams (not just Wisconsin) have clearly scouted out.

He has a tendency to too easily get his back to the basket when dribbling. Works great when you're inside the arc, and he's shown as good an ability to handle that situation as anyone in the country. But he also does it a lot when crossing half court, and that's what gets him into trouble. Opposing teams have the defender meet him close to half court, he turns his back to the defender, and they bring the double team to cut off his attempt to turn through the original defender. All the sudden he's trapped with two defenders and the half court line (and sometimes the out of bounds line). It happens at least several times a game and i cringe every time i see it coming. It's not a turnover every time, but it's a turnover a lot more than other players bringing the ball up and don't use that technique, and often leads to easy points for the opposing team.

If he can get out of the trying to back down the defender 40 feet from the basket habit (or make the move quicker before the double can come), I don't think we're having this debate at all.
 
#379      

ChiefGritty

ChiefGritty
Chicago, IL
ChiefGritty
NarrowJ said:
Using raw turnover numbers is bunk here though. Turnover rate takes all factors into account, mainly volume.

He has the ball a ton, so the raw number will always be high. This easily explains your confusion in this regard.
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The two most obvious guys in the Big Ten who are their team's primary ballhandlers and volume scorers, who both very clearly possess the ball in a game more than Domask does, are Buie and Jahmir Young.

Buie: USG% 27.8, AST% 29.5, TOV% 12.1
Young: USG% 31.0, AST% 29.9, TOV% 12.7
Domask: USG% 23.2, AST% 19.3, TOV% 13.9

These aren't cherry picks. Tominaga, Bruce Thornton, AJ Storr, Tyson Walker, Payton Sandfort, Terrence Shannon, Chucky Hepburn, different kinds of players, all ball-heavy, all lower turnover rates than Domask.

The only prominent players in the conference with higher rates than Domask are guys like Ace Baldwin and Elijah Hawkins who are chucking risky passes all over the place (and consequently have way more assists).
 
#380      

NarrowJ

NarrowJ
NarrowJ
Domask at 13.9% hmm, must've gotten inflated by the last couple games. He was right at 12% a few days ago.

I see now that you've selected a couple of high shot volume guys to compare him to, you now conveniently want to use usage rate (whereas before you were vehemently against it when you made the Kolek comparison ;))

Anyway, feel like this argument isn't worth the real estate it is taking up here. I'll agree to disagree and just watch the games and be happy we have a primary ballhandler with a turnover rate that is comparable to other top PGs.
 
#384      

ChiefGritty

ChiefGritty
Chicago, IL
ChiefGritty
From the cheap seats said:
I am confused. The Illini just won the B1G Tourney. Got a 3 seed. And MD was coach’s’ all-conference first-teamer. What again are we discussing?
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Yeah, I don't like being forced into an "anti" Domask position here, I have absolutely loved getting to know his game this year. Incredibly entertaining player, probably my second favorite watch on the team behind Dainja.

The juice is worth the squeeze with him turning the ball over, unequivocally.
 
#387      

Chad Fleck

Chad Fleck
Eureka, IL
Chad Fleck
From the cheap seats said:
I am confused. The Illini just won the B1G Tourney. Got a 3 seed. And MD was coaches’ all-conference first-teamer. What again are we discussing?
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This is kind of a slow time, in a strange way, during the college basketball season. No games happened yesterday, and the first 4 games aren't all that interesting today and tomorrow. Yet, we are all excited about college basketball. Ergo, we end up with a lot of tangents.
 
#388      

From the cheap seats

F
From the cheap seats
Long as we are wishing, how about MD at 7-feet tall, with Chucky Hepburn handles, TSJ’s slashing ability, Curry’s 3-point range and, of course, MD’s booty ball skills…😀
I have so enjoyed watching this Illini team that most of my wishes for them already have come true!
 
#389      

Ga65

G
Ga65
Chad Fleck said:
And here's another.

Marcus has done a commendable job, but he's no elite ball-handler. I think this is a case where data can't be used to tell enough of the story. As someone else mentioned, he has to look for the ball when he puts it behind his back. That's wild for someone who brings the ball up at this level. The Illini are routinely getting into their offense with 15-18 seconds left on the clock, because MD basically booty balls the defender all the way down the floor.

It commonly works, because MD can just wear the smaller quicker guard down and work him all the way to the rim. I find it somewhat nervewracking to watch, much of the time.
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Have no stats but my eye test says he doesn’t turn it over bringing it up the court. He has had his pocket picked dribbling it out front in the offensive court and been called for traveling several times. Don’t know why people are concerned with bringing it up the court. When pressed they pass and usually very effectively. Teams have learned it is very ineffective. Most point guards are quick and beat their man with the dribble. MD doesn’t have that skill and doesn’t try it. Efficient players understand their strengths and utilize them. Marcus is a great example.
 
#390      

Illini88

I
Illini88
From the cheap seats said:
Long as we are wishing, how about MD at 7-feet tall, with Chucky Hepburn handles, TSJ’s slashing ability, Curry’s 3-point range and, of course, MD’s booty ball skills…😀
I have so enjoyed watching this Illini team that most of my wishes for them already have come true!
Click to expand...
His TO rate would be too high. Would not have David Thompson’s jumping ability. And, and, and…. Kidding aside MD has been a gift. If be some miracle he is granted a medical red shirt I‘LL be over the moon. Only downside to that would be if Duke, Kansas, and NC come knocking with a big pot of NIL cash!
 
#391      

WyattEarp

WyattEarp
WyattEarp
Illini88 said:
His TO rate would be too high. Would not have David Thompson’s jumping ability. And, and, and…. Kidding aside MD has been a gift. If be some miracle he is granted a medical red shirt I‘LL be over the moon. Only downside to that would be if Duke, Kansas, and NC come knocking with a big pot of NIL cash!
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I don’t think so. He’ll wanna come back to the cold boring Prairie State and see if he can help win a second Natty.

(Corn fields look are superior to Wheat and Tobacco.)
 
#392      

InDaAZ

InDaAZ
Eugene, Oregon
InDaAZ
You guys knock yourselves out, but this is an accurate representation of how much time I’m devoting to the Great Domask Turnovers Debate:
Add Hasan Minhaj GIF by MOODMAN

We’re a Top-10, 3-seed team with the combined talent to make some noise in single-elimination. Domask, Rodgers, et al, are the guards who got us here… Unless John Stockton is hiding somewhere within our depth chart, let’s ROLL with them!