Illinois Hoops Recruiting Thread (March 2017)

[Adnarel]

If Illinois has evidence of miznoz tampering, then miznoz can anticipate enjoying its notice of allegations from the NCAA and hunker down to continue their life in the basement of college hoops. Illinois shouldn't take the low road and block Tilmon by way of "getting back" at them.

This is all hypothetical. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.

 

[Obelix]

Even if, for the sake of argument, it could be 100% proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that Cuonzo and Miznoz illegally contacted a signed recruit (which I know we would almost never be able to prove) we would still release him or risk the wrath of the media and STL people? Wouldn't that set a terrible president and create a free for all on SIGNED players? "Look guys, there's no penalty for trying to poach another team's players so why not keep pestering them. Maybe you'll get them so why not try?"

There is a big difference between releasing a player from his LOI due to the player all of a sudden deciding on another school and releasing a player because the school itself decided to make a coaching change and fire the coach that the player committed to. Players commit to coaches/schools combinations, not just schools. So if the conditions under which the player committed change, the school should release the player. Much more so when the coaching change was initiated by the school itself (coach fired). JMO.

 

[mattcoldagelli]

This is all hypothetical. I can't believe we're even having this conversation.

#EvergreenPosts

 

[Deleted member 8213]

If some shady move won us a single additional ballgame, I would be all for it, because I am a bad person.

:thumb::thumb:

 

[BirdDog9048]

That would be an incredibly bad look for Illinois Basketball. I know it's tempting to tell a kid "you signed with the school, not the coach" and restrict them, but you simply can't do it. The player will leave anyway, you'll take a significant PR hit, and it will hurt future recruiting.

If Tilmon wants out, you let him out. End of story.

I agree with everything you said here, but it brought up an interesting question in my head. What is the benefit of NLOIs from the school's perspective? In practice, it is essentially a one-way binding contract. The athlete can get out of it, but the school can not.

 

[helppitch]

No, what I posted is true. You are correct in that you can choose to negotiate the particulars of granting the release, but there are no provisions in the release process to block a school.

If Illinois had actual evidence of tampering from another program then they might think about trying to use that but would have to weigh it against the effect it might have on future recruiting in the area.

Hopefully it is all moot and Tilmon suits up as an Illini.

You can block a school, in that you do not need to issue the release unless the student elects to enroll at a school that the school who the student has signed the LOI approves.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

What is the benefit of NLOIs from the school's perspective? In practice, it is essentially a one-way binding contract. The athlete can get out of it, but the school can not.

If we hadn't fired Groce, and Tilmon got cold feet, he'd be sitting a year and no one would complain. It's only de-facto one way binding when you fire their coach.

Also, if he wasn't signed, he could have just signed with Mizzou the day Cuonzo got hired and we'd be done. The LOI at least gives Illinois the right to demand that he meets with the new coach and thinks it over.

 

[TownieMatt]

I agree with everything you said here, but it brought up an interesting question in my head. What is the benefit of NLOIs from the school's perspective? In practice, it is essentially a one-way binding contract. The athlete can get out of it, but the school can not.

I think it's about recruiting resources. Signing an LOI essentially ends the recruiting process, and keeps other schools from wasting resources on a player. That is, unless something like this happens, then it's game on.

 

[BirdDog9048]

If we hadn't fired Groce, and Tilmon got cold feet, he'd be sitting a year and no one would complain. It's only de-facto one way binding when you fire their coach.

Also, if he wasn't signed, he could have just signed with Mizzou the day Cuonzo got hired and we'd be done. The LOI at least gives Illinois the right to demand that he meets with the new coach and thinks it over.

I don't think the first bolded bit is true at all. I think STL media would still throw a fit, but there wouldn't be quite as much national backlash.

As for the second bolded bit, that seems untrue as well, because as everyone says, we should release him with no restrictions, otherwise we'll face numerous short-term and long-term consequences.

 

[BirdDog9048]

I think it's about recruiting resources. Signing an LOI essentially ends the recruiting process, and keeps other schools from wasting resources on a player. That is, unless something like this happens, then it's game on.

Isn't this something we would actually want? If we knew that a kid was 100% committed, but our rivals still wasted time/money on him, that seems like a plus for us.

 

[robjilla]

In my opinion Trent Frazier is the most important signee because of how he fits Underwood's system and he's the only one to come out and state he's still committed to the U of I.
2. Tilmon based on perception of a high four star and some say a low 5 star player,
3. Williams based on a legacy recruit.
4. Pickett which he could turn out to be another Malcolm Hill who knows.

I agree that Frazier is the most important signee, but Tilmon fills a position of dire need. I think if Smith signs, then you almost have to have a 3 guard lineup. Lucas showed some nice development as a true point guard. He should start. Frazier is capable of filling it up. He should start. Then you have Smith, an all around guard and Coleman Lands the Junior spot up shooter. Not to forget D. Williams and Jordan(who has been lost in the shuffle). I thought that Kipper vs DJ(if he stays) would materialize as a competition for the 3 position. If Tilmon stays committed and Smith does commit, that competition might not happen. Its a lot to consider.

 

[WesterveltVictoryCigar]

You can block a school, in that you do not need to issue the release unless the student elects to enroll at a school that the school who the student has signed the LOI approves.

Right, I already agreed that you can find other ways to block the athlete, but I don't think this is a realistic scenario.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I don't think the first bolded bit is true at all. I think STL media would still throw a fit, but there wouldn't be quite as much national backlash.

As for the second bolded bit, that seems untrue as well, because as everyone says, we should release him with no restrictions, otherwise we'll face numerous short-term and long-term consequences.

I'm not aware of a test case on the first proposition. Maybe in a case of like a sick relative back home or something (Kipper) where the player doesn't want to go anywhere. But to another school because you've changed your mind? The LOI is totally meaningless if that is allowed.

As to the second part, the timing of the process isn't a "restriction". Asking a signed recruit to wait to meet with the new coach is not an unreasonable burden at all.

 

[foby]

Bardo excited about recruiting potential -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-hZ6AjNUJk

 

[TownieMatt]

Isn't this something we would actually want? If we knew that a kid was 100% committed, but our rivals still wasted time/money on him, that seems like a plus for us.

But it would set up a ruthless system where kids are recruited until they enroll. At least this way there's more structure to help coaches focus on available players.

 

[BirdDog9048]

I'm not aware of a test case on the first proposition. Maybe in a case of like a sick relative back home or something (Kipper) where the player doesn't want to go anywhere. But to another school because you've changed your mind? The LOI is totally meaningless if that is allowed.

Kinda what I was working towards.

As to the second part, the timing of the process isn't a "restriction". Asking a signed recruit to wait to meet with the new coach is not an unreasonable burden at all.

Correct, it's not unreasonable, but if he says "No", the school can't really do anything about it.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

Correct, it's not unreasonable, but if he says "No", the school can't really do anything about it.

If Tilmon said he wanted out of his LOI the day Groce got fired, or the day Cuonzo got hired, we would have told him that we would only discuss the matter once we had hired a new coach and Tilmon and his family had met with him. None of the public backlash we're talking about would have resulted from that decision.

These are just the norms of the process.

 

[dmac279]

Even if, for the sake of argument, it could be 100% proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that Cuonzo and Miznoz illegally contacted a signed recruit (which I know we would almost never be able to prove) we would still release him or risk the wrath of the media and STL people? Wouldn't that set a terrible president and create a free for all on SIGNED players? "Look guys, there's no penalty for trying to poach another team's players so why not keep pestering them. Maybe you'll get them so why not try?"

Hee hee , we just poached a coach

 

[FiveStar]

Thank you 5*, for the 411. I was also wondering if we might start seeing competition from UWV or SC, given the coaching tree, but I don't know what those guys use in their systems now. Any thoughts on that? Who else uses the spread offense?

The only other team other than Underwood's teams that I've seen consistently running Spread is Oregon. I believe I saw one of the teams in a play-in game (16 v 16) or a 1st day NCAA game run it.

I can see us coming up against SC and WVU for recruits though, because we'll be looking for guys who can do similar things defensively. Longer, athletic guys that can pick up full and be positionless. Coincidentally, that's also what we'll want for our O.

Martin and Huggins both ran spread with Underwood as their assistant, so it's not out of the realm of possibility they would use it again. Huggins likes running banana cuts off the high post anyway. I haven't seen SC play since Martin got there, so I haven't really been able to examine their offense.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Tilmon and Dirty Miznoz programming.

 

[BirdDog9048]

But it would set up a ruthless system where kids are recruited until they enroll. At least this way there's more structure to help coaches focus on available players.

I agree, but I think it's safe to say that the current contact rules are probably violated on a semi-regular basis. If a kid has verbally committed, that should be sufficient for telling other coaches that he is no longer "available". If the coach persists and whiffs, that's their own fault. If the kid flips, fine. Isn't the point to let kids ultimately go where they want to go?

 

[Deleted member 8213]

Hee hee , we just poached a coach

More like we bought out his contract.

 

[FiveStar]

Isn't the point to let kids ultimately go where they want to go?

Yes. But the entirety of the NCAA system is not about putting the kids first. Its about money and therefore spills out into every possible related area.

 

[BirdDog9048]

If Tilmon said he wanted out of his LOI the day Groce got fired, or the day Cuonzo got hired, we would have told him that we would only discuss the matter once we had hired a new coach and Tilmon and his family had met with him. None of the public backlash we're talking about would have resulted from that decision.

These are just the norms of the process.

I agree that that is what normally happens, but if Tilmon says "No", we would still have to release him or face the backlash. The school will pretty much always be perceived as the bad guy in these situations.

 

[Second and Chalmers]

I agree that that is what normally happens, but if Tilmon says "No", we would still have to release him or face the backlash.

Not if we're just talking about a week of time. That's not a "no", it's a "not yet".

 

[EJ33]

If Tilmon wants to go to Mizzou then we let him out of the LOI. That's the right thing to do.

This is a young man who stands to make millions of dollars with good development/improvement over the next year or two. Cuonzo has a good pitch to that end. Jaylen Brown went #3 last year after one year. Ivan Rabb could've gone last year, but chose to stay. His draft stock may have slipped a bit, but he's all Pac-12 this year.

We fired Groce and this may be part of the cost.