Iowa 104, Illinois 97 OT POSTGAME

illini62707 said:

Stop waiting for someone to step up and be a leader! The previous 2 coaches were always harping on this. He is the leader! If someone steps up fine, if not he will have to bust their butts and drag them as long as necessary.
Please, stop all the freshmen excuses! Teams all over the country are playing freshmen. It is not an excuse!
What bothers me is how recruits will view what's going on. They want to win! They want to go to the tourney!
I'm in Underwoods corner, but I won't make excuse for him or the team.

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Am the same as for not making excuses & agree our results thus far make it more difficult to recruit.

However, as Indiana's season was coming undone late last year due to injuries. I specifically remember the announcers noting that they did not have on court leaders & that Tom Crean was trying to fill that role from the sidelines. But it does not work. Yes, a coach sets the tone before the game & pushes during. Yet there must be an on court leader or a culture that holds each player accountable. Much like Underwood has said the SFA team was when he arrived.

While other teams do play freshmen. It would be an entirely different Illini world for a Trent Frazier, Mark Smith, Damonte Williams with a Ray Rice, Malcolm Hill etc or any single one of those type of players as leaders on the court. I am glad we have Leron Black, but he does not strike me as a personality that leads a team.

Honestly, know this has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum. We could really use a Lucas Johnson to light the fire within this team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax8lKv5J2Ic

As good a time as any for a players-only meeting. Some things need to be said. Some things need to be heard. Some people need to start talking more.

The past is the past. Set a new tone moving forward.

skyIdub said:

Groce is soft. He left us soft. We are soft, and lack talent in the post. We got decimated on the glass by high IQ B1G post players. We are sick and tired. We have a try not to lose/afraid to win mentality. We play more freshmen minutes at the point than anyone in the B1G. We might play more freshman minutes than anyone in the B1G period?
We knew it would be an up and down, maybe more down, year.
Trent gives me very high hopes. Imagine what this experience is going to do for him in the next three years. Off the charts.
Go Illini. I love you, but I don't want to talk to you right now.

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This is how I see it, too.

This team is pillow soft, and it shows. And BU has said this many, many times -- there is a culture of losing in this program. In fact, he said this before the season even started. Not everybody took that comment to heart, but he knew what he was talking about.

That losing attitude is a real thing. And it has a real impact. We're seeing it now.

BU doesn't get a free pass by any means.......but some of the comments about "great, another bad coach" are completely ignorant.

RickBB said:

I thought so as well but his inability to shoot and his size gets exposed, especially in conference play when teams are really familiar with you. When guys are sagging 5 feet off of you, it make it REALLY tough to drive.

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actually he is shooting at .458 which is not bad. just not a 3p threat. he is even or better than TF in most stats except TF shows much better in scoring, 3ps and better in stls per game. one of our better lineups I like is TJL, TF and AJ on the court. IMO. I liked that TJL was on the sidelines arm around TF and encouraging him.

This is a good time to remind all of the players that you have to have a short memory. If bamas new QB dwelled on his 3 and out series and his interception during NCS final, bama wouldnt have won NCS, ( sorry for the FB reference but its fresh).

The team has got to move forward and expect to win the next possession and win them the majority of the time... before we win games. BU Has to lead them and teach them to win possessions.

On the positive...glad to see AJ and KN out of slumps and Ebo developing.

practispractispractice said:

Sorry, I lie leron and Michael, but they are so overwhelmed by anyone decent, all the time, Dambit.

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What games are you watching? Leron had 18 tonight. I believe he is avg over 13 a game. Our trouble is Finke is disappearing and our bigs had a total of 11 rebounds from 3 players. Leron and Frazier are carrying team.

Last nights loss is awful no way to sugar coat it. Iowa is as low as we are and we lost to them at home. To many fouls and stupid plays have become the norm until that is fixed nothing changes. While saying that I love Underwood's no excuses approach to the season and that he has them playing hard every night. Need to see some improvement out of our younger players Frazier and Williams seem to be getting there but Smith has went the other way since conference games have started need to get him going the right direction.

Berg88 said:

He's a freshman who is struggling. Hill struggled, Nunn struggled, Paul and Richardson struggled. Freshmen struggle.

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That is definitely true, and anybody calling him a bust at this point needs to calm down.

That said......the real concern is the trajectory. He's averaging 3.8 ppg and shooting 40% from the field in B1G play. That's a sharp drop-off from the non-conf slate. Hill struggled as a freshman, but Hill also was logging far fewer minutes. Those other freshmen got progressively better as the season went on -- Smith seems to be going the other direction. But.....there's a lot of ball to be played. All that matters is how he progresses from here on out.

This team just isn't going to beat anybody with Smith, Alstork, and Finke giving us nothing offensively. We're just not. Coming into this season, we needed all three to step up. Few thought that all three would swing and miss.

But again....lot of time left.

Chathamillini said:

What games are you watching? Leron had 18 tonight. I believe he is avg over 13 a game. Our trouble is Finke is disappearing and our bigs had a total of 11 rebounds from 3 players. Leron and Frazier are carrying team.

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Agreed 100%, I for one have been very pleased and impressed with LeRons game, he is WITHOUT QUESTION, our most effective post presence. His post game has improved tremendously, and for an undersized post, it’s even more impressive. The pace and patience he exhibits down low is fun to watch. But hey, we could always have him go back to what he did under JG, and shoot 3’s, that would surely solve our low post deficiencies. He is filling a much needed role, although I would like to see him get set up for more of his 15-17 foot elbow jumpers, he’s got that ability. Hey

We can only hope that bigs take notice of the talent we have at the 1-3 spots, and that Ayo augments that tremendously. Our record (barring) an unexpected turnaround is going to be poor, and post season runs are not in the cards now. If we can sell immediate playing time, great university, the staffs ability to develop (Ebo!!), style of play/opportunity for bigs to score down low, run the floor with amazing guards, and that with “you Mr. Big, we can return to a top 20 Team IMMEDIATELY. Not always easy, as the teams record WILL be an easy thing to spot, but there are ALOT of selling points for bigs.

Unfortunately, if we don’t sell them and get them to sign, these problems and weaknesses are not going away, and we may be sitting here 5 years from now saying JG couldn’t recruit a PG, and BU couldn’t recruit a big.

1st Loss Where we're favored

One of the most discouraging aspects of last nite's game to me, was that we were favored and lost for the first time this season (I think). All our other losses we were underdogs. All our other wins -- with one exception -- we were favored. The lone exception was Mizzou where we were dogs. So we're one and one in this department.

All this is to reinforce my disappointment. Up until now, I could say to myself -- and any others who would listen --"Oh, well, we were supposed to lose this one...." Now I can't even say that.

I watched the game at a Suburban Chicago Alumni Club gathering. Midway thru the second half, we were all saying, "How can they lose a home game to a crappy team when they were up 20"?

Doesn't Underwood have the team practice against zones? If so, it didn't appear that way last nite.

Also -- many on this board were concerned even before the season began, about our lack of size (and talent) up front. To which the reply was, "Positionless basketball is the trend -- you don't need the big bodies." Well, I guess we did last nite.....

Obelix said:

With the exception that we won both of our games last year vs. Iowa, against a much better team with Peter Jok. Style is more attractive, current results are not.

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We also had Malcolm, Maverick, and JCL on that roster. While I don't really miss the latter two's games, they each brought something to the table the team is currently sorely missing.

TALKTOCHUCK said:

Really tough loss. Finke is my largest disappointment. He is giving this team very little right now

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Absolutely agree

TALKTOCHUCK said:

Really tough loss. Finke is my largest disappointment. He is giving this team very little right now

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I agree. It tells you something that Finke started on the bench in OT even with the size disadvantage

My greatest concern is that, before the season, Coach Underwood talked up the team and several of the players (Mark Alstork, for example) and now here we are.

Things can turn around but I can't logically expect it this year. The team plays one good half of basketball. Either it falls way behind, makes a comeback, and almost wins or it gets way ahead, collapses, and almost wins.

There are two primary problems right now:

1. This entire roster has not been trained to win in fundementals or mentality. Witness Underwood's Mic'd up segment instucting players to go up strong with one move and draw fouls and not double pump...and then Finke IMMEDIATELY accepts the ball off the inbounds, double-pumps and misses shot. The previous regime was willing to accept mediocrity and just didn't drill out the bad habits or train good habits.

2. Underwood currently NOT running Underwood's own offense. Search "Brad Underwood Spread Offense" on Youtube and you'll see something that isn't close to what we're currently running. Our bigs have to be trained to run the high post handoffs (against zone or man) and the rest of the team needs to be trained how to commit to the cutting movements to allow the bigs to make the decision to make a handoff, pass to a cutter, or turn around and shoot/drive (in that order).

We had enough talent to be a mid-level BIG team and a shot at tournament, but somewhere along the way Underwood lost his religion and started adapting to the lazy, hero ball tendencies that he inherited.

jbmay83 said:

We're just to thin up front. We need to get a big next year.

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You can point at a lot of things as reasons for losses, but the lack of size is the biggest. Illinois is a small team. Iowa's length in the zone was the difference in the game. Illinois gets worn down making up for the size deficit. They still need to quit fouling , particularly Alstork. I like his aggressiveness, but a smart offensive player can put 2 cheap ones on him in a second. Smith will come around. Watching him play so tentatively is painful. Right now his body language shows his frustration. He hasn't figured out his role.

Having the flu run through this team really has hurt us. We struggle to put together a 40 minute game regardless as a team, and then having half our team not 100% on top of that really makes for disasters like yesterday.

I still have a lot of confidence that we will see a much better product by the end of the season than we started with. If things can click for Smith, Damonte, and Kipper to go along with the continued improvement of Frazier and Ebo, this team will be looking good going forward.
I never had very high hopes about this team this year (granted I did see us as being much better than we currently are), and as frustrating it is to watch us blow games that we should win, it won't take much to make some of these games go our way. 3 of our loses in the B1G have come in overtime, and we were very competitive in the other 2 for large stretches of the game. That is a culture and inexperience issue. Freshmen will always be freshmen (and please don't use the excuse that other teams have freshmen, almost none of these freshmen are ranked high enough where any team should have to rely on almost every single one every game). The other issue is that the culture isn't there, no one is holding each other accountable. There is almost no leadership from our upperclassmen because they haven't known a winning culture. We have a losing mentality combined with young inexperience. That will almost always come back to bite you in the butt more often than not. Our inexperience will lead to bone-headed plays and inconsistency and our losing culture means that when things start going poorly they go poorly very quickly and often no one is there to snap us out of it on the court.

One of the few positives is that BU gets to instill his culture in these freshmen from day one. This is a perfect example to them of why you can't be losers, why losing has to hurt, and why you need to be a team where every single person plays their role and holds everyone else to a certain level of excellence. Unlike Groce who blindly would keep his upperclassmen in until he was forced to change, we have seen BU go to the freshmen early and often and he seems to have no problem giving minutes to those who deserve it. Recruits will see this and know that they can play and will play if they do their job. BU's actions actually back up his words, something that can't be said about an Illinois basketball coach for a long time.

RedBeard said:

There are two primary problems right now:

1. This entire roster has not been trained to win in fundementals or mentality. Witness Underwood's Mic'd up segment instucting players to go up strong with one move and draw fouls and not double pump...and then Finke IMMEDIATELY accepts the ball off the inbounds, double-pumps and misses shot. The previous regime was willing to accept mediocrity and just didn't drill out the bad habits or train good habits.

2. Underwood currently NOT running Underwood's own offense. Search "Brad Underwood Spread Offense" on Youtube and you'll see something that isn't close to what we're currently running. Our bigs have to be trained to run the high post handoffs (against zone or man) and the rest of the team needs to be trained how to commit to the cutting movements to allow the bigs to make the decision to make a handoff, pass to a cutter, or turn around and shoot/drive (in that order).

We had enough talent to be a mid-level BIG team and a shot at tournament, but somewhere along the way Underwood lost his religion and started adapting to the lazy, hero ball tendencies that he inherited.

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I agree with your first 2 points. However, to your last point, I don't thing the Underwood necessarily lost his religion and is adapting to hero ball. I think that our team is currently being run by freshmen who are new to college basketball let alone to a system with as many reads and wrinkles as BU's. Being that almost none of the upperclassmen besides Black and Jordan are giving anything to this team on offense, it makes for very sloppy play with the ball constantly getting stuck and therefore ruining the flow of the offense. Once this happens, the players adapt to a hero ball scenario with about 7 or 8 seconds left on the clock. I don't have the direct quote but Frazier even mentioned how they need to start trusting the offense because they see how when it is run correctly it opened up a lot of big plays for them.

TALKTOCHUCK said:

Really tough loss. Finke is my largest disappointment. He is giving this team very little right now

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Agree on Finke. We have no chance when Finke and Alstork don't contribute. We just don't have the horses to compensate for that. Sadly Lucas isn't far behind. Becoming so apparent Underwood needs to get his own players.

Kipper

For gods sake, Stop double clutching and go up strong!!!!
How many steals/ break away layups has he missed jackknifing??? So frustrating

I think the thing that's most frustrating about this team is how many really good halves they have had. We know they have the talent/ability to play well. We've seen them do it in 20 minute chunks. It's just maddening that they play great for half the game, bad for half the game, and then come up just short of winning. We have 3 overtime losses. I think we are pretty close, even with the major limitations that our roster currently has.

Ok, great, the Flu Game is out of the way. Now, let's check the stats and see what else happened - Positives: Had better 3-point % by far at 46.7%, had 8 more assists, and had 3 fewer TO's. Negatives: Had worse game FG%, 26 fewer FTA, 19 fewer rebounds, 14 more PF's, 1 less block, 3 fewer steals, 18 fewer points in the 2nd half than the first, and another loss less than 10 points by 7 this time. Kept thinking in the 2nd half, "It might be just as good of a time to bring Matic in and see what he can do, couldn't do much worse." It didn't happen, and if it did, maybe Leron wouldn't have fouled out, who knows, but that was the coaching staff's decision. Next up - let's beat NE on Monday and get our first B1G win.

http://fightingillini.com/documents/2018/1/11/Illinois_Iowa_Box.pdf

Mark Smith I think will be a good player but he is not a player that is going to be able to play the point, he has a real difficult time staying in front of his man. This team really needs 2 Bigs that can rebound and defend the rim, with that you win most of these games.

For those who have given up, please do not go to a BU coached game at Assembly Hall. Leave the seat for me. This was definitely our worst loss this year, but for those that some how think it was better with groce, I think you must just check the scores instead of actually watch the games. I won't give advice on what BU needs to do, because I believe he knows the game better than I. Can't say that about Groce.

clusterbuster75 said:

For those who have given up, please do not go to a BU coached game at Assembly Hall. Leave the seat for me. This was definitely our worst loss this year, but for those that some how think it was better with groce, I think you must just check the scores instead of actually watch the games. I won't give advice on what BU needs to do, because I believe he knows the game better than I. Can't say that about Groce.

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+1000