John Groce at Illinois

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#976      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
DudeAbides said:
You answered your own question. They lost their coach to the Bulls. Since 2011, ISU has signed 3 4* HS recruits. Illinois has signed 10. For all our moaning about recruiting, it has been, ranking wise, much better than ISU. The difference is that Hoiberg is a fantastic coach and Groce, unfortunately, isn't. That's why Chicago hired Fred and not Groce.

I could also argue things like Ames being in the middle of nowhere, 3+ hours from any major recruiting ground (which would be shared with Minnesota, Missouri, Iowa and Kansas) and a rather boring college town. Most of the state is made up of Hawkeye fans. Hilton is not nearly as nice as SFC. The Big Ten is a better conference than the Big XII, both in terms of revenue and stability and competition. I could also argue that wins are easier to come by in the Big XII than people realize. Check out how many total S16 berths B12 teams earned since 2011. Hint: 8 total from 10 teams. MSU and UW have 8 total between the two of them.

There is also the fact that Iowa State hasn't been to an Elite 8 since 2000 and hasn't been to a Final Four since Hitler was alive.
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Iowa State lost a coach to the pros. We may likely lose one back to the MAC (or worse).

Recruiting <> results and the state of the program. Iowa State > University of Illinois. They've been trending upward the last half decade. We've been trending the other way.
 
#977      

Sal Iacuzzo

S
Yonkers, NY
Sal Iacuzzo
Iowa State is the 2nd most popular program in a small state (and a distant second at that). It's not that good a job, a few years of success doesn't change that much.
 
#978      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
Sure, Hoiberg built that program off of transfers - Royce White, Chris Allen, Chris Babb, Korie Lucious, Will Clyburn, DeAndre Kane, Jameel McKay, Abdel Nader. So using HS stars is probably not a good comparison for "recruiting" or talent levels.

Having said that, while they've certainly had better teams recently, I agree with you it doesn't necessarily elevate their entire program that far above us.
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And everyone of those transfers were either dismissed, suspended or had problems at their previous school. Three of those came from the famed Izzo stable. I hope we don't ever "!!!!!" ourselves to that extent. Mr Milk Toast and ISU wanted to win at all extent even it it meant taking problem children. After all isn't that where Noskowiak ended up. :)
 
#980      

Sleepy Floyd

S
Kicking it with Fat Lever
Champaign
Sleepy Floyd
TCTORNADO said:
And everyone of those transfers were either dismissed, suspended or had problems at their previous school. Three of those came from the famed Izzo stable. I hope we don't ever "!!!!!" ourselves to that extent. Mr Milk Toast and ISU wanted to win at all extent even it it meant taking problem children. After all isn't that where Noskowiak ended up. :)
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Groce owes getting the Illinois job to Armon Basset who had lots of of court issues.
 
#982      

coryfor3

C
coryfor3
TCTORNADO said:
And everyone of those transfers were either dismissed, suspended or had problems at their previous school. Three of those came from the famed Izzo stable. I hope we don't ever "!!!!!" ourselves to that extent. Mr Milk Toast and ISU wanted to win at all extent even it it meant taking problem children. After all isn't that where Noskowiak ended up. :)
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NN ended up leaving Iowa State. And other than him, their "problem children" seemed to have their issues end at Iowa State. I am not sure if that is because they looked the other way on stuff or if they matured or if ISU provided a better support system/babysitting or what...
 
#983      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
Sal Iacuzzo said:
Iowa State is the 2nd most popular program in a small state (and a distant second at that). It's not that good a job, a few years of success doesn't change that much.
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I still think that's debatable. When you look at their history over the last 30 years they've had more good years than bad.

But the salient point here to me is not which is a better job, but which program is better at this point in time.

In my mind there is no argument, it is Iowa State.
 
#984      

IntenselyOrange

I
IntenselyOrange
Ransom Stoddard said:
I still think that's debatable. When you look at their history over the last 30 years they've had more good years than bad.

But the salient point here to me is not which is a better job, but which program is better at this point in time.

In my mind there is no argument, it is Iowa State.
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In my mind, the point is that it is actually reasonable to debate which program is a better job right now. Although ISU has performed better recently, I think Illinois is the better job. But we've fallen far enough that I can understand the counter-point.
 
#985      

zpfled

Z
Logan Square, Chicago
zpfled
Ransom Stoddard said:
But the salient point here to me is not which is a better job, but which program is better at this point in time.

In my mind there is no argument, it is Iowa State.
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You're right about that...but I thought this whole conversation started with "which is the better job".
 
#986      

Ransom Stoddard

Ransom Stoddard
Ordained Dudeist Priest
Bloomington, IL
Ransom Stoddard
zpfled said:
You're right about that...but I thought this whole conversation started with "which is the better job".
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Could be, maybe I'm arguing apples and hand grenades, but to me I don't draw much distinction. Illinois is a project with perhaps a higher ceiling than ISU, which is an established program with a solid trajectory. If I were interviewing for both, hometown bias aside, I'd take ISU.
 
#987      

TCTORNADO

TCTORNADO
TCTORNADO
Ransom Stoddard said:
I still think that's debatable. When you look at their history over the last 30 years they've had more good years than bad.

But the salient point here to me is not which is a better job, but which program is better at this point in time.

In my mind there is no argument, it is Iowa State.
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The Kappa's and Larry Eustachy agree.
 
#988      

zpfled

Z
Logan Square, Chicago
zpfled
Ransom Stoddard said:
Could be, maybe I'm arguing apples and hand grenades, but to me I don't draw much distinction. Illinois is a project with perhaps a higher ceiling than ISU, which is an established program with a solid trajectory. If I were interviewing for both, hometown bias aside, I'd take ISU.
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Illinois with a great new AD hire is a better job I think.

Illinois without an AD or with a mediocre hire...not so much.

I'm curious what the difference between school resources is. I would think that being in the Big Ten is a big advantage for Illinois, but I don't know that.
 
#989      

DudeAbides

D
DudeAbides
Ransom Stoddard said:
I still think that's debatable. When you look at their history over the last 30 years they've had more good years than bad.

But the salient point here to me is not which is a better job, but which program is better at this point in time.

In my mind there is no argument, it is Iowa State.
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I agree that if comparing the current states of programs, Iowa State is laughing at Illinois. We've had a rut in success and our DIA is a dumpster fire.

But I was coming from the argument that since Bryce Drew allegedly turned down Iowa State that meant he'd also turn us down. I don't agree with that because, even with our faults, we're still a much better job than Iowa State for reasons I listed - recruiting, facilities, conference, fan/alumni base etc.

Illinois was a better program than Kentucky from 00-05 but I don't think anybody thought for a second that the Illinois job was better than the Kentucky job.
 
#990      

Tevo

Tevo
Wilmette, IL
Tevo
bleedsorangenblue said:
For the life of me, I don't understand why anyone would want to hire coaches without coaching experience at this time regardless of whether or not they bleed orange and blue. It might be different if the program were cruising along at a high level and there was luxury in doing so. If what is needed is someone who can boost the program in fundamental ways, hiring someone like a Robert Smith would make a whole lot more sense.

I am not saying that this is what should be done but I just see hiring ex-Illini because of their connection to the program as being too risky. The only one really worth considering would be Roger Powell and I don't think his credentials to be strong enough at this point, though I could be wrong in this regard. If this program needs some change at the coaching level, grasping at straws is not the way to go about it.
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Generally, you'd like to see ex-Illini go somewhere to a smaller program, get some coaching experience, go work with some other programs to expand their experience, hopefully have success, and then come back home when a spot opens. Roger's been doing that, Jerrance has been doing that. Dee hasn't yet. I could see him joining the staff as the third assistant/recuiter for a year or two, and then get hired away as a lead assistant somewhere, eventually coming back to the Illini. But it would be rare for him to join the Illini directly and then stay for a long time.

Besides, do we really want him learning to coach from our current coaching staff who apparently don't know how to do it very well?
 
#992      

Adnarel

A
Adnarel
That is a good article. It manages to synthesize the legitimate doubt about his acumen with the fact that he's been dealt a trash hand... and probably shouldn't be getting judged this harshly.

Realistically, we're not going to play this badly for the rest of the season. But we are either very close to or at the point where it's going to become clear whether or not the kids have quit.
 
#993      

Klondike

K
Klondike
Adnarel said:
Realistically, we're not going to play this badly for the rest of the season. But we are either very close to or at the point where it's going to become clear whether or not the kids have quit.
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Well, the Vegas line on tomorrow's game is a pick 'em. And if we lose that, to move to 1-6, we will be favored in 3 remaining games.

v. OSU (dogs)
v. Wisconsin (dogs)
@ Rutgers (favored)
v. Iowa (dogs)
@ NW (dogs)
v. Rutgers (favored)
@ Wisconsin (dogs)
v. Indiana (dogs)
v. Minnesota (favored)
@ Maryland (dogs)
@ PSU (dogs)

Hopefully we pull off the win tomorrow, or this is going to get bleak (12-19 [4-14 B1G] bleak), fast.
 
#994      

DudeAbides

D
DudeAbides
Klondike said:
Well, the Vegas line on tomorrow's game is a pick 'em. And if we lose that, to move to 1-6, we will be favored in 3 remaining games.

v. OSU (dogs)
v. Wisconsin (dogs)
@ Rutgers (favored)
v. Iowa (dogs)
@ NW (dogs)
v. Rutgers (favored)
@ Wisconsin (dogs)
v. Indiana (dogs)
v. Minnesota (favored)
@ Maryland (dogs)
@ PSU (dogs)

Hopefully we pull off the win tomorrow, or this is going to get bleak (12-19 [4-14 B1G] bleak), fast.
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Tomorrow will be huge. If we lose then I see only 3 more wins max like you suggested. If we win and show improvement, I can see the 3 favored wins plus NW, OSU and PSU to finish 8-10, which would be a remarkable turnaround and give Groce another year. If only we had beaten OSU and UNL as well we'd be pushing for 10-8 and a likely NIT berth. I don't understand where posters thought we'd get 12+ wins before the season. I thought 9-9 (before Thorne went down) was much more realistic.
 
#995      

HeartofaChampion

H
HeartofaChampion
IntenselyOrange said:
In my mind, the point is that it is actually reasonable to debate which program is a better job right now. Although ISU has performed better recently, I think Illinois is the better job. But we've fallen far enough that I can understand the counter-point.
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+1. We're still a better destination with a higher ceiling than ISU. Twenty-three NCAA tournament appearances between 1981-2009, a F4 in 05 and 89, better recruiting turf to glean from and now a newly remodeled arena. If we could ever get our act together and hire an AD, we might be on to something.
 
#996      

Klondike

K
Klondike
DudeAbides said:
I don't understand where posters thought we'd get 12+ wins before the season. I thought 9-9 (before Thorne went down) was much more realistic.
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There's some serious kool-aid drinking that goes on around here, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. This is an Illinois supporters board, after all, and it's way more fun to talk about winning. However, you don't have to look far to see claims that this team, if healthy, was headed for a top 5 seed in the NCAAs. I tend to think that we were a bubble team if healthy.
 
#997      

WesterveltVictoryCigar

WesterveltVictoryCigar
WesterveltVictoryCigar
DudeAbides said:
I don't understand where posters thought we'd get 12+ wins before the season. I thought 9-9 (before Thorne went down) was much more realistic.
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I doubt you could find many "12+wins" predictions that were made before the season. Especially because at the time the Big Ten was predicted to be the best conference in the country. Most predictions I saw were in the 8-10 win range.

Now once we saw how weak the bottom half of the league was and how truly favorable our schedule turned out to be, I'd say that the ceiling for a fully healthy team would have been higher than I would have predicted at the start. But of course we never got to find out. It's also too bad because the schedule was really, really "RPI friendly".
 
#998      

Golfer63

G
Golfer63
WesterveltVictoryCigar said:
I doubt you could find many "12+wins" predictions that were made before the season. Especially because at the time the Big Ten was predicted to be the best conference in the country. Most predictions I saw were in the 8-10 win range.

Now once we saw how weak the bottom half of the league was and how truly favorable our schedule turned out to be, I'd say that the ceiling for a fully healthy team would have been higher than I would have predicted at the start. But of course we never got to find out. It's also too bad because the schedule was really, really "RPI friendly".
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Many of the analysts at different points during this season have said that we were a tournament team if fully healthy.
 
#1,000      

IllinoisFan733

IllinoisFan733
Chicago
IllinoisFan733
Honestly, the officiating rule changes in 2016 really benefited teams with quick pgs who could penetrate. Unfortunately, Illinois doesn't have one of those. Look at a player like Yogi or Melo Trimble... those guys are very difficult to stay in front of with man defense. When you have a guy getting in the lane, players have to help and it opens up the floor for the rest of your team. When I see Tate walk the ball up over and over, it's glaring how much we need PG help. PUSH THE BALL!!!

Hopefully TJL can begin to be the answer next year, with Abrams being a solid veteran. Then bring in a solid 4* PG in 2017 who can help TJL and the rest of the team.
 
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