Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
John Groce at Illinois
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IlliniRon
Illini Basketball Fan Forever
- Ft Worth, Texas
Exactly, that team turned around quickly the following year and really had a nice mix of players, including the 3 McD AAs. I don't know what we will look like next year, but I think the reason I thought of that 98-99 team is they really struggled winning conference games. Hard to guess if we will win as many conference games (3) this season as that team.
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There are many others on this board who are MUCH more adept at both recognizing and breaking down specifics about basketball. And they provide entertaining and sound reasoning when looking at this team from an insightful and well-grounded knowledge base.
Having said, I will simply apply an age-old way of looking at a team: Do they pass the eye test? Does this program, and the way Groce is running it, pass that test?
If you think it does pass, you may need to have your driver's license revoked. Joking aside, I welcome those with more acumen to help me understand why I should be more patient.
I already know the issues with injuries play a part in the difficulties, but the reliance on transfers, the Paul debacle, the lack of PG and C recruiting, and the poor showing of fundamentals on the floor do not give me a sense that the program is headed in the right direction.
Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope.
Having said, I will simply apply an age-old way of looking at a team: Do they pass the eye test? Does this program, and the way Groce is running it, pass that test?
If you think it does pass, you may need to have your driver's license revoked. Joking aside, I welcome those with more acumen to help me understand why I should be more patient.
I already know the issues with injuries play a part in the difficulties, but the reliance on transfers, the Paul debacle, the lack of PG and C recruiting, and the poor showing of fundamentals on the floor do not give me a sense that the program is headed in the right direction.
Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope.
That lineup still has the same weaknesses that we have now.Not a real pg or no real center.I'm definitely hoping TJL is good enough to be the starting pg by then.
It's not only about the coach being in a do-or-die situation. It's about the product on the court. Getting a commitment from that class is the most important thing Groce can do at this point, IMO. His only chance at that, again IMO, is a player seeing what Nunn is accomplishing and seeing himself succeeding in this system. But it will take a different kind of kid who bets on himself. I'm not holding my breath for that.
By 2017-2018 TJL will most certainly be starting as a true 1.
Unfortunately I agree with this. I think Groce is a great guy and is awesome at press conferences but when it comes to in game coaching and making adjustments he struggles. I think he would be a and has been a great lead assistant and recruiter but I just don't seem him longterm as a coach in the BIG. I really hope I am wrong because I think he's an awesome guy but that's just what I see. This team has been hammered with injuries and unfortuate things but even with all the injured players playing I still don't think we would be as good as some think. We would for sure be better and have a better record but some think we would be a 1 or 2 loss team and I just don't see that. The team we currently have has taken double digit leads into the halftime locker room numerous times this year only to have them vanish in the 2nd half. Some of those games the team was able to win the games but they have also lost some of those. This team also really struggled against BAD teams in Chicago State and UIC. Hopefully they get healthy soon and we see some major improvement. As a man I would love to see Groce coach this team for a very long time but as a coach I am not sure he is the right guy for the job.
Nobody thinks we would have 1 or 2 losses. Never seen anyone say that. We would likely have four or five at most right now had the roster been healthy year and that's even excluding a healthy Abrams.
Sal Iacuzzo
- Yonkers, NY
I just wonder what people are seeing in Groce that makes them think he can turn it around. Once things start going down hill it's hard to reverse the momentum.
haasi
- New York
My own feeling is that we're unlikely to get anyone good, getting another coach will further destabilize the program and likely cause players to leave, and just set us back further in a rebuilding process. With Groce, he's done nothing really to impress the last 2-3 years, but a good portion of that is due to circumstances beyond his control, and I still don't feel certain that - in a couple of years, if he gets some more good recruits in, people can stay healthy, and Groce continues to develop the program and to develop as a coach, he might take us somewhere good. With Weber it was different - he had 9 years. Oversaw the fall of the program from a top 10-caliber program to a bubble team, and given the length of his tenure and the recruits he was bringing in there was no real question as to where we were going or who he was as a coach. My feeling is that unless we know we can get someone better than Groce, Groce gets a pass this season due to injuries, we see who he signs for 2017 and how we do next year, and if there's not enough promise at that point, he goes. And then if Groce manages to sign a couple good players in 2017 and gets us to the tourney next year, he earns himself more time.
I'm all for adding an amazing recruiting assistant. Would be completely fine seeing one of the assistants go to make room for someone with some real upside.
Criteria
I can't imagine anyone is happy with the current product.
What is the solution? Is it firing the current coach? What is the criteria for firing a coach? If he is fired, who is going to be the replacement? After the Beckman hiring (I literally turned to my wife after the introductory news conference and said I would hate to see how bad the other candidates had to be to hire him), I am more than a little concerned. Based upon the foregoing and the weird AD search committee - did Illinois forget that Jerry Coleangelo and Jerry Vainisi are alums? - this has a high chance of being even worse...which, for me is a scary thought. What should be the criteria for hiring a new coach?
I can't imagine anyone is happy with the current product.
What is the solution? Is it firing the current coach? What is the criteria for firing a coach? If he is fired, who is going to be the replacement? After the Beckman hiring (I literally turned to my wife after the introductory news conference and said I would hate to see how bad the other candidates had to be to hire him), I am more than a little concerned. Based upon the foregoing and the weird AD search committee - did Illinois forget that Jerry Coleangelo and Jerry Vainisi are alums? - this has a high chance of being even worse...which, for me is a scary thought. What should be the criteria for hiring a new coach?
People seem to forget that had MT never got hurt, we would likely be sitting at 12-4 (2-1) with quality wins over IA St., and ND, a semi quality win over Michigan, and a 10+ pt win over tOSU in CBus. We will be fine. Some of the fans need to chill. We have everybody coming back next year, key players get healthy, plus our talented freshman have a year of experience under their belt. No reason why we can't finish, at worst, in the top 5 of the conference in 2016-17.
Sleepy Floyd
Kicking it with Fat Lever
- Champaign
Matt Painter and Mark Turegon did it.
I think if all of Thorne, Abrams, and Leron return along with everyone else and the new pg, he will get us to the tourney. However, after that I don't see him pulling in any recruits or being able to coach us anywhere after that.
The inevitable is there. I think we could get a decent X's and O's guy that could turn us around (maybe Gregg Marshall???). I would be willing to take the chance.
I really like Groce as a person and he is someone I would want to be the face of our program as a person. However, he just can't coach. There is absolutely no way we should lose by 25 even without Nunn and the injuries to Michigan State without their star player when they have looked pedestrian without him.
You give Izzo our team and I guarantee you that we look a lot better. I know we are not getting Izzo, but you give Gregg Marshall our team and we look a lot better. We have no system and obviously with injuries we have no rebounding/defense. However, to score as little as we did with Malcolm Hill, JCL, and Finke, that speaks volumes. Also, how do we give up as many points as we did even with our crappy defense?
I would rather fire Groce and see if somehow we can savage the 2017 recruiting class.
I think for me it is the freshmen class, along with the point guard recruit coming. Next year with these freshmen a year older, Black healthy and TJL coming in, they should add much more support to the two pre season all big Ten guys that will be entering their senior year.
And Hey, I am one that thinks we would only have 3 losses if we were healthy.
North Florida- No Kendrick, No Black and lost Tate in the middle. Lost by 8. Calling it a win if healthy.
Providence- Lost by one with Alex Austin going 1-7 in 33 minutes. Calling it a win if Kendrick Nunn plays those 33 minutes. :thumb:
Chattanooga- Once again, lost by 4 with no Nunn. Calling it a win if KN played.
Iowa State- Lost by eleven, was down by one at half. Lost Mike Thorne. I will give you this one because we easily could have lost it even with Mike Thorne healthy.
Notre Dame- Lost by 5 with no Mike Thorne. I think we win it if he is there.
Michigan- No Thorne or black and lose by 10 at home. I think we beat them but I will give you a loss here as Lavert can beat anyone.
Ohio State- Lost by one with no Thorne or Black. I think that is a win easily if we have them both.
Michigan State- Too much to overcome with no Thorne, Black and Nunn. But, I think Valentine would have played if they were all back as they almost put him in anyway, so I will give you a loss there.
so yes, I do think you could take 5 games from the loss column and put in the win column and we would be 13- 3 right now. I also realize I am more optimistic than most here but I refuse to live my life always looking at negatives.
What's even more impressive is that the last 3 baskets in that 10+ win @tOSU would have all been tomahawk dunks.
what happens if you fire Groce and you can't salvage the 2017 recruiting class? And you lose little Finke because you fired Mike's coach? Just something to think about. Two ways to look at it and nobody can forecast but all can second guess afterward. Ah, Coaching.
I can easily see us getting to the tourney next year, getting Goodwin, Williams and another (probably not Tillman) to go with this freshmen class. Then getting little Finke to play one year with big bro (remember he didn't play with him in HS). All this with Groce.
The key of course being getting to the tourney next year. I think we will but I can see that many might argue.
haasi
- New York
Can't imagine we'd get Marshall. Hard to think he'd be interested even if he had many millions of dollars to throw at him. Between the state of the program, the state of the athletic department, and Illinois' budgetary issues, really hard to see us firing Groce and getting anyone really good coming in.
Maybe we pull out a miracle hire at AD and there's a super promising coach who wants to work for him. But unless new AD feels strongly that he has someone good, I wouldn't fire Groce after an injury-riddled season just to roll the dice on who might show up. Remember that Shaka and Stevens opted to stay put last time and this season is not going to inspire anyone to want to pick up the pieces.
We can make a thousand excuses on the Xs and Os, we just dont have the Jimmy and Joes. Bottom line!
I think last night was not just a one-game thing, but more an indication of where are program is at and heading under this coach. I like him and he says all the right things, but I have never in 40 plus years of watching Illini b-ball seen such terrible defense and then to have an offensively challenged game where you have three players on the court at the same time quite often who can't score. I just don't think he is the answer and isn't a very good coach and I am tending to agree with the alumnus who told me on New Year's Eve that Groce would be fired at the end of this season by the new AD who will want his own guy. Couple that with the fact that Groce has given us no reason to retain him, it will probably make it an easy decision for the new AD. I was seriously thinking Nebraska and Bruce Weber all over again watching last night's debacle and unfortunately there have been too many of them under Groce (final two games last season).
what happens if you fire Groce and you can't salvage the 2017 recruiting class? And you lose little Finke because you fired Mike's coach? Just something to think about. Two ways to look at it and nobody can forecast but all can second guess afterward. Ah, Coaching.
I can easily see us getting to the tourney next year, getting Goodwin, Williams and another (probably not Tillman) to go with this freshmen class. Then getting little Finke to play one year with big bro (remember he didn't play with him in HS). All this with Groce.
The key of course being getting to the tourney next year. I think we will but I can see that many might argue.
Right now, I could maybe see us getting Goodwin, but I am not confident in Williams/Tillman. Do you really think lil Finke is going to want to play with big bro if the coach can't coach.... I mean Groce is a great guy, but the dude cannot coach that well at all. We are on a downturn, why not role out Aaron Jordan and DJW instead of Tate and the other point guard.
Here's what I see on offense. Run Nunn off picks or let Hill create for self or others. Sometimes through the ball in the post. Defensively, while not talented and cannot rebound, I see a bunch of confusion.
What I would do differently. I would let Hill run the point again, play DJW, JCL, Finke, and Aaron in a lineup when not using Nunn/Maverick. I would implement way more two man ball with Hill/Finke as who is going to cover both? I would have JCL, Aaron rotate on who is shooting from 3 and who is slashing to the paint with DJW. This just one example..
We have no system in place. We play Austin, Tate, and Lewis this year when we really have no use other than to spell a few minutes. We have no offensive system other than 1-on-1 ball which is why Coach Groce's is so relient on a skilled one or combo guard. He has never had a very good season as a head coach other than peaking a couple of times in the conference and NCAA tournaments.
He is a great guy, but after the few years, recruits quit buying what he is selling. Players will do the same which is why it seems like they are quitting sometimes.
If I was the new AD, I am going after coaches that I trust even if I don't land them (Gregg Marshall, etc...). I surely think someone with a better pedigree would want to come - whether an assistant at a big name program that earned its marks - Chris Collins could have been that - I think he would have gotten us somewhere with his ties at a bigger name program and better coaching).
Anytime you get a coach with ties to a big name program (blue blood) you eventually end up losing that coach to said blue blood. Just like Self going to Kansas. The Duke job is Collins' to lose once Coach K hangs it up. NW just needs to hope Collins gets them to the dance and then cherish that forever because once that Duke job opens, he's gone.
It seems you have devised a system that can be successful in the B1G without any C/post/inside player or PG. If you think you can pull this off, you should seriously apply for some coaching jobs
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